1 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:36,560 be talking this morning to a number of people, Augie Roberts is with us, Dominic Lucciassi. 2 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:45,000 I understand that Jonah may join us for a period of time and Ben Fisk with the cyberneticians. 3 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:49,600 And we've had so many letters and cards from people telling us that they'd like to know 4 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,720 more about the derals. 5 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,000 Now some people believe in derals, some people don't. 6 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,920 We've had people that tell us it's science fiction, other people tell us that this is 7 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:01,920 true. 8 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:03,720 I don't know, frankly. 9 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,160 I'm sort of a non-believer. 10 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:10,160 But we'll find out this morning or at least we'll ask a number of questions and I hope 11 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:14,720 that we'll be able to get a number of answers. 12 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:25,520 And if I'm correct, I think that the beginning of the famous Darrow story or the Shaver mystery 13 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,960 is actually this was started by Ray Palmer, isn't that true? 14 00:01:29,960 --> 00:01:36,600 Yes, it was started while Ray Palmer was the editor of Amazing Stories. 15 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:42,800 Ray Palmer was the editor of Amazing Stories for 12 years and during this time Palmer did 16 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:51,160 run the series which were written by Richard S. Shavill, which Palmer admitted he painted 17 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:56,560 in order to make it more interesting for the readers of Amazing Stories. 18 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:05,080 Now that original story which really created the whole Shaver mystery, so to speak, was 19 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:11,800 a story called I Remember Lemuria, which was written in 1945. 20 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:18,840 And right after that story hit the stands and people began to read the magazine, it began 21 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:28,120 to get circulated around and the next month 50,000 letters were received by W.B. Ziff, 22 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,400 who was the publisher at the time. 23 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,560 And that was after the first printing of the story, John. 24 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:42,840 Now actually Shaver wrote these thought records as he called them later on and I'll explain 25 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:44,320 just how that came about. 26 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:49,160 Well I'm trying to figure out how can you write a thought record? 27 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,520 Well Shaver claimed that he was receiving messages. 28 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:53,520 No actually- 29 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:58,040 So I thought when you said a record I was thinking in terms of a disc on a turntable. 30 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,560 Yes, well it may be something like that John. 31 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:05,400 Actually we don't know just what these mechanisms in the caverns look like. 32 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:13,080 Shaver claimed that actually the history of these race of beings who resided on the earth 33 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:20,400 20,000 years ago was on a thought record and being transmitted there by a mechanism in 34 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:22,800 one of the caverns. 35 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,400 And when I say that I have to go into detail there- 36 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:28,240 Well was Shaver in the cavern? 37 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,640 Is this where he saw this equipment? 38 00:03:30,640 --> 00:03:34,040 A little later on he claims to have had some type of- 39 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:35,360 In other words I'm rushing you? 40 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:36,800 Yeah more or less John. 41 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:37,800 You continue I'm sorry. 42 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:39,480 Because so we'd have to get down to the bottom of this. 43 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:40,480 He was working as he wanted. 44 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:41,480 The bottom of the cavern. 45 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:46,840 Well I'd like to certainly but I think I know just about how to go about it but I wouldn't 46 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:52,080 be a clumpy proper to state it because many people could get into grave danger attempting 47 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,280 to enter the caverns. 48 00:03:54,280 --> 00:04:03,800 Now Shaver worked as a welder for a shipyard and he claimed that these thought records 49 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:08,080 were being received by him while he was welding. 50 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:14,040 Now whether the welding arc had anything to do with the pickup of these records which 51 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:22,480 were transmitted through the earth's shell so to speak from the caverns I don't know. 52 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:27,520 But he claimed that these messages he began to hear these voices sort of a sort of a super 53 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,280 ESP. 54 00:04:29,280 --> 00:04:36,400 Now of course ESP if advanced by a welder isn't credited as much as when it's advanced 55 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:45,440 by someone like Dr. Ryan or some more qualified individual but I think that maybe it could 56 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:51,520 be the possibility exists that Shaver actually was receiving some type of information by 57 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,160 ESP I don't know. 58 00:04:54,160 --> 00:05:01,600 And yet during as the mystery unfolded during the period of years that that amazing stories 59 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:09,280 published it there were some things that Shaver said and stated and predicted more or 60 00:05:09,280 --> 00:05:17,080 less which actually seemed as though he was receiving some form of information from some 61 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:24,720 outer source so to speak because from what I can gather from Ray himself Ray Palmer is 62 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:31,920 that Palmer claims that Shaver used to send these manuscripts into him and he would have 63 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:38,000 to edit them and these manuscripts were written on the backs of envelopes scrap paper. 64 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:44,640 In other words they weren't they weren't in proper form for submission to any publication. 65 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:48,880 What was their reason for this was Mr. Shaver a poor man and couldn't afford to have a. 66 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:54,160 I don't think so John I think that he was just a little odd we may say in his way of writing 67 00:05:54,160 --> 00:06:00,160 he probably wrote what he received these so-called messages he would find an envelope in his 68 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,720 pocket and more or less the way it appeared anyway. 69 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:07,040 I'd anything let's put it this way that's the way Shaver made it appear anyway and I 70 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:11,440 don't know whether he did it because he didn't have paper he couldn't afford it but that 71 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:16,400 is the way Palmer claims he used to receive these manuscripts. 72 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:22,800 Now Shaver sent these manuscripts in a condensed form and he sent them into amazing stories 73 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:24,160 as true. 74 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:30,080 Now amazing story I mean the refter from did amazing stories up to that time ever print 75 00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:33,120 a nonfiction story. 76 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:40,160 No well strangely enough John before I remember when you were here was published in Amazing 77 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:50,800 Stories Shaver I believe did submit a small sort of a two page deal which dealt with an 78 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:55,920 alphabet which he claimed to have received or had possession of Shaver Shaver received 79 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:01,360 this alphabet and that was printed in 1943 from what I can get which was before the story 80 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:08,720 I remember the mural and according to Palmer after this story I remember the mural was 81 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,200 published these fifty thousand letters. 82 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:17,040 Well I mean it's very difficult to believe of course but Palmer claims that almost all 83 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,720 these fifty thousand letters were more or less what we make term positive letters. 84 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:30,080 Let me ask you this Domini I understand that the circulation for that particular month 85 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:35,200 was only fifty thousand is that true or was it an additional fifty thousand. 86 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:41,360 Well I know the circulation went up to one hundred and eighty five thousand copies per month 87 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:47,120 and it needed the publication about half a million dollars. 88 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:53,120 So well I mean that's that's neither here nor there about the amount of money I was 89 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,720 interested in the circulation you say that the circulation was about a hundred and eighty 90 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,520 five thousand after these stories began to be published. 91 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:05,360 Well then there is a possibility that they could receive fifty thousand letters let's 92 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:10,480 just say that the circulation was actually a hundred and fifty thousand for round figures 93 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:17,760 and that would be a third of the readers that sent in a letter of course that would be a 94 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:25,440 tremendous amount. I mean that's very unusual but let's face it if we're going to accept that 95 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:31,760 circulation figure and I have no reason to doubt the word of just Davis as a publishing 96 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:36,960 outfit and if they had that amount of circulation well they could have received well I find 97 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:42,240 I want to take your statement John it wasn't that Davis that made this claim it was Palmer himself 98 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:48,400 that made this claim. Well now let me let me ask you this Domini are you familiar with ABC 99 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:59,360 audit Bureau of Circulation that's an unbiased organization that determines the circulation 100 00:08:59,920 --> 00:09:10,640 of any publication that is a member of their organization. Now you can't pay them off in 101 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:17,920 other words no money would ever in other words you couldn't even offer them enough money at any time 102 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:23,280 that maybe they would try to give you a break and add a little additional circulation to their report. 103 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:29,440 Now as if Davis I'm very sure I don't know about that in those days but if Davis I'm very sure 104 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:37,280 is a member of the audit Bureau of Circulation so any circulation figure that would be given out by 105 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:44,560 the Ziff Davis publishers or any member of audit Bureau of Circulation would be an accurate 106 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:51,600 circulation figure. Now if this figure was given out that figure of a hundred and eighty five 107 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:58,880 thousand by the Ziff Davis publishers then you and I can can bet our bottom dollar that that was 108 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:05,600 the legitimate paid circulation there is no exaggeration there's no cream that's been put on 109 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:11,280 top or anything to puff it up. That's a fantastic circulation for a magazine of that type at the 110 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:17,120 time. I wouldn't be in a position to judge. I don't know what would be considered good circulation 111 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:23,920 for a science fiction publication. I might just say this to you that I understand that life 112 00:10:25,680 --> 00:10:35,520 has a circulation of I think something like six or seven million. I know that fake magazine has a 113 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:44,800 circulation of sixty five thousand and certainly that's that's a magazine that well it's directed to 114 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:52,160 a very very limited group of readers so it's quite possible that they had that. I mean I think we should 115 00:10:53,760 --> 00:11:01,680 at least be fair to Palmer and to Ziff Davis and to Mr. Shaver and say that this is quite 116 00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:08,240 possible and if they if they had a hundred and eighty five thousand readers that month 117 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:15,360 or if they had a hundred eighty five thousand paid circulation then there is a possibility as 118 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:20,720 remote as it may seem that they could receive fifty thousand letters. Yeah well from what I 119 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:26,400 hear Geron is that there was a paper shortage at the time and as the circulation began to increase 120 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:32,240 and began to get at these large figures they began taking paper from their other magazines 121 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:40,400 in order to keep up the quantity of amazing stories. In other words they had I think a detective 122 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:47,280 publication at the time and they would borrow paper so they would publish less of one publication and 123 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:54,160 put out more copies of amazing stories. Yeah that's what I heard Geron. I can believe it. 124 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:01,760 Did you hear this from Palmer or is this known in the trade. This is sort of known in the trade. I 125 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:09,280 mean it's sort of a trade rumor so to speak and I myself know that at the time I was very 126 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:16,720 interested extremely interested in Shaver and in Palmer of course because I did like amazing 127 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:22,560 stories. I like to read them as science fiction and I found that they became extremely fascinating 128 00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:30,960 as as propounding the Shaver mystery and sort of putting it over as truth and by myself used to 129 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:38,240 have trouble sometimes finding a newsstand which had the magazine about four or five days after it 130 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:44,400 hit. It seemed like it was doing the water during the time when the Shaver mystery was 131 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:49,600 running more or less every month. But was that during the war. Yes that was during the war. 132 00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:57,040 It was just near the end of the water and actually it really started 1945 when he hit with that one 133 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:02,720 terrific story that I remember in the area and that seemed to have keyed everybody off. But 134 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:08,240 people began writing in and saying it's true. This thing happened to me and this happened to my 135 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:13,200 neighbor and Shaver is telling the truth and they began backing him up one right up to the 136 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:20,160 hill one hundred percent. Well an interesting thought at least I think it's rather interesting to 137 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:27,920 think about for a moment. I was always under the impression that the majority of people who 138 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:34,640 purchased or did purchase at that time amazing stories that these were science fiction fans. 139 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:41,440 Now do you think that science fiction fans would be the type who would write in letters and say I 140 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:46,400 believe this. This happened to me and all because they're so accustomed to these wild fantastic 141 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:52,320 tales that they've been reading the magazine for any length of time. Well John I don't really know 142 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:58,400 because I noticed that the epithet story come out whether we've got around or whether it was the 143 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:04,480 cover or whether whatever it was. But I noticed many of my friends who weren't interested in 144 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:11,440 science fiction began buying amazing stories and in all probability some of the science fiction 145 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:17,200 fans and I can't say percentage wise up to what degree but I'd say some of the science fiction 146 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:23,840 fans did buy the Shaver story besides buying amazing stories. Wasn't it also true down that they 147 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:29,920 there were Shaver clubs at that time and many people would tell others. There were Shaver mystery 148 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:35,680 clubs started and they were more or less we could liken them to the saucer clubs of today. 149 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:45,760 And the strangest thing is actually is that Shaver in his original stories explained what people 150 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:52,560 called the saucer mystery today. Actually Shaver had it long before the so-called saucer mystery 151 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:58,480 ever came into the headlines. Well he was the one that puts in pretty good saucer stories out. 152 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:04,320 Who shaved. Shave it. Well they weren't exactly saucer story. He didn't call him saucer so 153 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:12,000 no he had a different name for them and he was using a lot of if you put notice in his writings 154 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,960 but I don't know whether it was Shaver's touch or whether it was promise touch which gave it that 155 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:25,360 sort of ancient Hindu mythological angle sort of and they were terrific stories they were 156 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:31,200 or I wouldn't say they were the best in science fiction by no means but it was the 157 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:37,120 the footnotes to the stories which made them interesting in other words Palmer would that 158 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:43,760 probably expand one paragraph of Shavers into two pages of script in the magazine 159 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:50,480 and then below this he would more or less try and reclaim what was the supposed 160 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:58,240 truths hidden in Palmer's rendition of Shaver's so-called thought record receptions. 161 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:06,160 I've been listening but I may have missed the point. Did you bring out that I hear this someplace 162 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:15,440 else about the fact that Mr. Shaver was receiving these messages through some type of welding 163 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:21,200 equipment. Yes he was Johnny was it. Yes. Yes. I see. Well then where do we come in with the 164 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:28,560 thought records. Well the information that Shaver received on this welding equipment 165 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:36,480 was information which pertained to the history of what we may say of life on the earth itself on 166 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:43,760 this planet and these records supposedly went back 20,000 years into history the history of the 167 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:51,120 planet. Of this planet. Of this planet. And he sort of was getting this record which was a recording 168 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:57,760 left behind by the race of beings who inhabited the planet before the present era. 169 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:07,200 These beings were known as Titans. Shaver claims and later on in some of his stories and some of 170 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:14,320 these thought records they come out as Atlans. ATLANS which would give us to 171 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:23,520 presuppose that there was sort of an Atlantis theme involved in Shaver's history. Did he ever 172 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:30,000 mention anything about Atlantis. Well he claimed that the continent of Atlantis and Lemuria or 173 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:38,800 Moon was it was known as did exist and was part of the ancient inhabited colonies of these Titans. 174 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:45,840 But one thing Shaver did say and that was that Atlantis did not necessarily sink. In other 175 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:52,160 words it did not go beneath the sea as we have come to more or less suppose but actually the 176 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:57,920 sinking was a misinterpretation what happened to it then according to Shaver. Well Shaver 177 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:04,080 claimed that the Atlantis or I can't recall exactly which one now was a long time ago that I read this 178 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:08,960 particular. I thought you were going to claim that you were there at the time. Well I don't know. 179 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:16,960 I might be a reincarnated Deere or Tiro. Is it Deerell or Gattle. Well I don't know. I guess you could 180 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:23,920 use sort of a freehand style on it. Well who was determined that they said. Well actually 181 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:31,440 man-tongued alphabet. De according to what man-tongued the alphabet. Oh sure. Supposedly 182 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:40,160 Shaver received from these thought records of Lemuria was De. So De would be pronounced in 183 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:49,600 that alphabet as D. So in row. Row R. D. Row. D. Row. R stood for in the alphabet with a phonetic 184 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:56,320 alphabet and as Shaver claimed this alphabet each letter in the alphabet was descriptive of a 185 00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:02,960 particular mental concept or sequence of mental concepts. It was sort of a basic source alphabet 186 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:09,440 for the human language. So what would D be. D would be disintegrate energy and it would be pronounced 187 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:19,440 D. E. And what would R all be. R would be horror and O stood for orifice or source. So D. Row would 188 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:27,600 stand for detrimental horror source and in other words detrimental row or detrimental row but 189 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:37,040 if we converted into modern English. Shaver claims that this alphabet works out in most languages 190 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:42,000 except the romance languages. He claims that it doesn't work out so well in the romance languages 191 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:51,600 but it does work well. It works in the ancient tectonic dialects. It works well in the Sanskrit. 192 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:57,840 It works out in Hindu. Hindustana. Do you have ever made any tests. Yes I have John and now a little 193 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:03,520 later in the program I would like to conduct a test with your permission with the listeners. 194 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:11,440 All right. Now when I interrupted you Dominic I think that you were telling me the correct 195 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:19,440 pronunciation of the word D. E. R. O. That's right John. But we have to remember that there isn't 196 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:26,080 only D. Row it is also also T. Row supposedly living in these caverns and there's another thing 197 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:33,520 we have to consider when we say caverns beneath the earth they don't don't necessarily have to be 198 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:41,680 below sea level actually because as Shaver claimed many of the mountain ranges which are above sea 199 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:49,200 level contain these vast caverns which run for thousands of miles beneath the earth and we of 200 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:55,600 course do realize that there are many unexplored areas of the earth which consist of thousands and 201 00:20:55,600 --> 00:21:02,720 thousands of square miles. I'd even go as far as to say there's also some part of the globe which 202 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:08,720 hasn't even been flown over and I think you should know something about that. What do you think about 203 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:13,040 me about the climate? I mean flood areas all there in the surface. There are many many places I believe 204 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:19,200 down that have never been explored before in fact even in our own United States here of course the 205 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,440 northern places haven't been explored before. Yes there are Amalia's that are very unknown 206 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:30,480 more or less unknown territories. I was just wondering Dominic if you could tell our listeners 207 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:36,880 because there's possibility that Sembroke didn't hear the discussion anytime that we had Jeff 208 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:42,160 Robinson. Yes sir Jack was here that evening and you tell and you sort of give us a little 209 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:49,120 recap on that what happened to him. Well John I wouldn't try to attempt to emulate Jack because 210 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:56,400 Jack actually lived the story he was part of it and I'll do my best to recall it. Of course I would 211 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:02,320 never be able to tell it quite as convincingly as Jack does because he is the man it happened to. 212 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:09,600 He is the man that knew this person. I can't recall that person's name now. Do you recall it? 213 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:15,520 I don't remember. Well Jack was living in a furnished room at the time I believe 214 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:24,640 and there was this artist whom Jack became acquainted with and Jack claims that this fellow 215 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:32,320 had a strange hobby if I recall correctly of creating jewelry out of buttons was it already. 216 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:36,640 Well a jewelry out of buttons he did. He collected buttons and then he used to put little pins on 217 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:44,640 them and put little pins on them and created this sort of a custom jewelry and Jack got to know him 218 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:54,240 very well. He gained the man's confidence and this man claimed well he told Jack this in more or 219 00:22:54,240 --> 00:23:02,160 less over a period of time. Jack was able to derive from the man the fact that this man at one time 220 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:12,800 or another had been on a prospecting trip into the desert country in California and this man 221 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:22,080 claimed that he was kidnapped by the Dero and that he had been kept in the Caverns for I forget 222 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:28,960 how many years. Two years was it already and that in some way I can't remember the exact tale 223 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:36,640 but the man found himself wandering in New York City. Wasn't it already? Well I thought it was 224 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:44,800 in some story about that he was missing. He had on jeans or something. He had $800 in his pocket 225 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:49,920 and two years later he found himself walking on Times Square. I believe that was it. He got 226 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:57,120 on the same $800 and it seemed that no time had lapsed and yet he discovered that it was two years 227 00:23:57,120 --> 00:24:01,200 later that two years out of his life seemed to have disappeared. He had no knowledge of it. 228 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:05,520 That was the idea of it John and plus the fact that the man was an artist if I remember 229 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:11,440 and the man used to paint these very weird landscapes which looked like landscapes from 230 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:19,680 another world. They consisted of odd color combinations in color and harmonious tone. 231 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:26,800 The paintings he said had a great depth to them and they had this very weird quality that no 232 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:32,800 matter who would look at them they could sort of sense something alien about them about the scenes 233 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:41,440 depicted in these pictures. And the man, Jack said the man was extremely clean. He was a nice 234 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:47,840 person. He went out of his way to be kind to everyone and he was a vegetarian. He would not eat 235 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:55,760 meat. What was the reason for this? There might have been that the DeRose, he probably had seen 236 00:24:55,760 --> 00:25:02,240 things that I wouldn't want to discuss. He probably had seen some pretty horrible things in the 237 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:09,520 caverns and I doubt very much if he could had a full recall of what happened. But Jack said that 238 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:16,320 he remembers going down into the caverns being kidnapped and taken into the caverns and then 239 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:22,240 there was some type of mechanism attached to his head. And Jack said this man still had the scars 240 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:29,840 on his temples where this mechanism, suppose that we had the scars where this mechanism was 241 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:35,360 attached to his temples. What was the reason for this mechanism to be attached? Well the way I see 242 00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:42,320 it, John, looking at it from the viewpoint of what we know, I'd say that this mechanism probably made 243 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:48,800 him into a slave or a robot. Is this what he claims? Or he has no knowledge of them? Well he 244 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:54,640 believed that that is what happened to him. Did Avery ever say anything about the possibility 245 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:59,600 of people being made slaves? Definitely, John. Definitely. That was one of his main points. 246 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:06,160 He brought up missing persons and he claimed that the Dero for thousands of years were 247 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:14,240 kidnapping people from the surface and doing it in such a underhanded way that just nobody ever 248 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:20,640 just thought of it. I mean there's a fantastic amount of persons missing every year and it's 249 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:28,480 certainly possible to say that they have to be taken somewhere. It's difficult today with the 250 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:34,400 bureaus we have in the United States here to just disappear. I mean we need the social security 251 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:39,360 numbers. Why is it so difficult to disappear? Well because identification is more or less 252 00:26:39,360 --> 00:26:45,520 required when you apply for a job. If you apply for a defense job in particular, if you apply for a 253 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:50,400 job in a plant which is subsidized by the government. What would happen if you, Dominic, 254 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,840 I don't know what the rules may be and I just don't know me now that you've made that statement. 255 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:04,000 What would happen if you left your home in New Jersey and went to another part of this country 256 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:11,520 and assumed another name and you made application for a social security card? Would they question 257 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:16,000 you and refuse to give you one? I don't know. Be honest with you, John. It's so long ago since I 258 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:21,280 applied for my social security card. That's a little different. I mean because you applied for one many 259 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:30,960 years ago. I mean let us assume that you go to another part of the country and you take on a new 260 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:36,400 name. You change your name, not legally. In other words, you don't go to court or anything like that. 261 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:44,240 And you change your name to Augie Roberts. Could you walk into a social security office and apply 262 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:49,920 for a new card or would they ask you what happened to your old card? Well, John, I think that I could 263 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:55,680 actually agree with you. I think I could get a new card. I think so. Now, you could get a new 264 00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:03,040 social security card. What is the big problem about getting identification? Well, age would come 265 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:08,400 into the effect of age, I think. What would age have to do with it? Well, I doubt if anybody would 266 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:13,360 be foolish enough to falsify any papers where they would have to apply to a draft board or where 267 00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:18,320 they would have to apply to any job which required some type of civil service. Well, you don't have 268 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:24,640 to take that type of job. In other words, if you're trying to get away from somebody or some situation 269 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:30,240 in the community that you now reside in, and you go to another community in another part of the 270 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:36,880 country, in other words, I'm interested in a statement you made about missing persons. Now, 271 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:43,120 if you go to another part of the country and you get a new draft card, it's quite true. You possibly 272 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:48,880 will not get a job with the FBI, but you could get a job working in a restaurant. You could possibly 273 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:54,240 get a job working in a gasoline station as an attendant. And what would be the reason that you 274 00:28:54,240 --> 00:29:00,560 need any? No, I agree wholeheartedly with that contention, John. That isn't the part that 275 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:09,040 interests me. It's not just missing persons. According to what I could discover, the FBI has 276 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:15,280 listed about 120,000 people per year in the United States missing, which is quite a lot of people. 277 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:24,800 And I'm not interested in the majority of missing persons. What I am interested in is the minority 278 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:30,960 groups which disappear without apparent cause or reason. In other words, the fellow whose wife tells 279 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:36,960 him or tells his wife he leaves his code, he leaves everything he practically owns and runs down to 280 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:41,360 the corner drugstore or never comes back. And then it just don't come back. Yes, this happens. 281 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:47,200 But there's a lot of reasons for these things to happen. Now, certainly I can't 282 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:54,240 give you the answer, the reason for every person who has ever disappeared, because I don't know the 283 00:29:54,240 --> 00:30:02,160 people. But there's a possibility that a man just reaches a point in life that he's going to pack it 284 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:11,920 in. He wants to just divorce himself from all past associations. He doesn't pack a bag, he doesn't 285 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:17,280 take a toothbrush or razor blade, he doesn't even go to the bank and take all the money out. He's 286 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:26,720 got $19.84 in his pocket, and he leaves. Sure, it's a tragic thing. It's a tragic situation for 287 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:32,960 his family. But why wouldn't it be possible to do this? And let me ask you another question. Is it 288 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:40,000 illegal to leave? Oh, I mean, providing that you don't take the car that you own notes on or 289 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:44,240 something like that. I think it is. After all, if the man is married, he can be charged with 290 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:48,240 desertion. That's right. Let's forget about married trimmer. The man is not married. Let's assume 291 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:57,280 that's from a unmarried man who who had been working for some company, the XYZ Corporation, 292 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:05,120 possibly as their sales manager. He is not married. His parents passed away a number of years ago, 293 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:14,080 and he maybe he's sitting in the local pub, and he figures to himself, why? What is the big struggle 294 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:22,240 for? And he calls the bartender over and he says, Charlie, what a lily. The fella figures it out. 295 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:31,680 You owe me $3.20. So he throws him four single dollar bills, leaves him an 80 cent tip, picks up 296 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:37,840 and walks on. Never goes back to his apartment, doesn't pick up the attache case, doesn't take any 297 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:43,600 of the bookshelves, just disappears. Well, what we've done, John, now we've got it down to two 298 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:48,640 categories anywhere. We've got those who have good reason for disappearing, and now we have a 299 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:55,440 percentage of the hundred and twenty thousand who have no apparently good reason for disappearing, 300 00:31:55,440 --> 00:32:03,200 but who disappear in a spur of the moment. And what would you consider the statistical part of 301 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:09,440 that type that you're discussing now? You mean to just walk off? Yeah. Well, I don't think I can give 302 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,760 you an answer to that question anymore. And you can give me an answer and tell me what percentage 303 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:18,800 you think of the people that have been grabbed? Well, I don't. And after what have you by the 304 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:25,440 zero? I don't particularly think anything in particular on that particular point. But what I 305 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:32,160 do say is that the possibility exists. And the fact is a hundred and twenty thousand people is a lot 306 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:39,760 posed down. Say out of a hundred and twenty thousand people, at least maybe five or ten or 307 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:44,480 maybe even a little more. Well, remembering that all of you are only talking of one country now, 308 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:50,160 this concerns the whole. It's not only one country. Well, suppose they were picked up by the police 309 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:55,440 for some reason or other, a minor infraction, say, or they did something quite bad and their fingerprints 310 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,840 were checked. Wouldn't that bring out their original name even if they changed it? Oh, that happens 311 00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:04,960 every day only. I mean, that happens every day. No, why would a fingerprint that my fingerprints 312 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,840 have not registered any place to my knowledge? Well, minor, I know, from the army service and 313 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:17,120 the soldiers. That's right. But no, those records are not kept. The FBI keeps the army records? 314 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:22,560 I know if I go any longer that I might not have fingerprints be checked. I don't know. I don't 315 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:29,120 know about that. Well, actually, what I was getting at there is that there are a lot of 316 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,600 countries in the world who don't keep as close a check on missing persons as the United States. 317 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:41,680 They haven't got the law enforcement agency that we have here and taken India, for instance. 318 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:47,600 There could be thousands upon thousands of people missing in India and very few people 319 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:54,560 would know about it because of the area, the lack of police citizenry, 320 00:33:55,360 --> 00:34:02,480 working to stop or alleviate the condition of people just disappearing. In India, you have 321 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,000 people who are actually dying of starvation while they're walking while they're on their feet, 322 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:12,800 practically. And actually, I doubt if statistics are kept to any great accuracy in India. 323 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:18,240 So we'll take just India alone, a country like India. Why go to India all of a sudden? 324 00:34:18,240 --> 00:34:23,840 Well, if this happens all over the country, there are 20,000 people down the link. I don't know why 325 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:29,280 we should pick on India. We've got 120,000 people that are missing and you have implied 326 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:36,480 that there's a possibility that maybe there's a percentage, maybe only 10 people out of 120,000 327 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:44,000 people that are kidnapped by the D-roads. Well, first we'd have to sort of break it down into 328 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:49,760 categories and then we have to figure from the viewpoint of percentage. How can you break anything 329 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,600 down into categories when you know nothing about it? And I don't mean to be unconscientious. 330 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:58,480 I think that by going to a missing person's bureau or speaking to a missing person's expert, 331 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:06,560 we can get a statistical average of why people disappear. And by breaking down the known average, 332 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:15,600 we could arrive and deduce those that, according to the probability ratio, would not disappear 333 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:22,080 by any normal explanation. Damnedu, most people disappear in remote areas of the United States. 334 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:26,080 Well, I would put it this way, I don't know. I don't know. Where to or disappear from? Do you 335 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:31,760 mean disappear from, say, a special area? Those small communities or people walking in the country 336 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:37,040 somewhere alone? I would say that a person living in a small community, if he disappears, it would 337 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:43,920 be more noticeable. But it would also be less known to those who live in larger communities. 338 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:48,640 Well, don't the Daros usually operate in remote parts of the country? 339 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:54,960 Well, no. Strangely enough, that isn't so. In fact, according to Shaver, 340 00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:01,920 many of the larger cities in the United States have a surface Daro population. 341 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,200 Well, is it possible to disappear right in your own room, John? 342 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:14,960 Well, there's another fantastic claim by Richard S. Shaver, and he claims that the Daros have 343 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:25,040 an apposition, mechanisms which can, by scientific knowledge or means by utilizing certain ways, 344 00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:31,840 create, or we may term, a state of teleport in the human body. In other words, people could 345 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:36,640 disappear from a closed and locked room. Are you familiar with the story, I'm sure you are, 346 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:41,280 down with the tape I have of this fellow who sent it to us, and he made the claim that while he was 347 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:47,120 laying in bed one night, he remembered the story we told or was told a number of months ago with 348 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:53,760 Harlan Oason, that he was to make a large noise and start yelling, I want to see a Daro that the 349 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:58,400 Daros would come to him. This point I want to bring out is... Well, more than strangely enough, 350 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,480 I'm going to have to disagree with that. I don't think that any particular 351 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,560 fit, like what Claim did, that you had more or less 352 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:17,840 performed, would bring a Daro to teleport you to the cataracts. Well, no, this fellow made the 353 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:24,160 claim that... Well, I think Palmer made that claim, actually. Well, I think Palmer made that claim in 354 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:29,840 a letter that he wrote to Jerm. But where the fellow... The letter he wrote to me? In reference to 355 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:34,320 Harlan Oason, in which he said that if Oason would take his shoes off and throw them on the floor... 356 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:35,280 Throw them on the floor or something. 357 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:40,880 ...he would yell at the top of his voice. Well, personally, I think if Oason did something like 358 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,800 that, I think the Daros wouldn't take him away. I think it would be the men in the white coats. 359 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:51,520 What I wanted to say down was that this fellow here made a loud noise, and he wanted to see a 360 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:56,240 Daro, and he was lying down in bed. Maybe he went to sleep, I don't know, but he said he felt something 361 00:37:56,240 --> 00:38:01,680 grab his leg and start jerking him off the bed there. You know? He almost fell on the floor. 362 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:07,120 You made a statement there, Oogie, that I don't particularly buy. I don't think... 363 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:14,800 I've never actually seen a Daro, which I could prove was a Daro. I've seen people who 364 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:20,320 could fit the description, probably both physiologically and mentally, both. But I've 365 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:26,480 certainly never seen anyone I could prove was a Daro. I don't know. I can't say that a Daro would 366 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:31,840 not come to your room were you to perform that strange, very good entrance. 367 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:39,440 As far as if I'm into Reveno, I think actually that Ray Palmer was trying to be facetious, 368 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:45,680 and at the same time, he was trying to make a point. In other words, actually, according to that 369 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:51,680 letter, and I haven't got it... I have it someplace in my files out in parts of New Jersey, 370 00:38:52,800 --> 00:39:02,560 my home. But I know that he was pretty peeved at Harlan Ellison, because Harlan had made a 371 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:09,200 couple of statements ridiculing Ray on the program. He ridiculed Ray Palmer. And I think this is the 372 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:16,640 reason that Ray wrote that letter. There was something, some discussion on the program. 373 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:24,880 Harlan made a statement that he met Ray Palmer in an elevator cab. They were going up or coming down 374 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:32,720 from one of the floors in the hotel at a science fiction convention. And the two of them were in 375 00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:41,280 the elevator alone, plus naturally the operator. And Harlan made the statement that Ray Palmer said 376 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:48,560 that the whole thing was a farce, that he had written it to increase the circulation of amazing 377 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:54,080 stories. Well, of course, this is fine. This is something that he should do. He should try to 378 00:39:54,080 --> 00:40:00,400 increase the circulation of any publication that he may be the editor of. But to do it in that way 379 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:06,560 would be wrong. Now, whether Ray ever said this or not, I will never be in a position to say. But 380 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:14,800 Ray Palmer has denied it. Enthatically, he claims that he never spoke to Harlan Ellison. I shouldn't 381 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:19,920 say that he never spoke to Harlan Ellison, but he never discussed the Shaver mysteries. Do you 382 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:26,480 know a funny thing, Dominic? You told me that the correct pronunciation is B Rose, and I've noticed 383 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:31,600 the last 20 minutes you've been saying, Darrell, what is it? Oh, I guess it's force of habit, 384 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:36,080 John. A lot of people say Darrell, don't they? Darrell, no. That's what I thought. It's a lazy 385 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:44,560 way of doing it, actually. A lazy way of doing it. All right. I think we, at the time that I 386 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:50,320 interrupted to take care of a little business, Dominic, I think that, oh, I'm sorry, don't you 387 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:55,920 know that? Well, I've heard that many of them over the years, John. All the time. And there, 388 00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:03,360 Dominic Blue Chestnut. All right. All right. You were, into a discussion, you were talking about 389 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:10,720 the possibility of a small percentage, in fact, you didn't even say a small percentage, I'm assuming 390 00:41:10,720 --> 00:41:18,560 that this is what you think anyway, that a percentage of the 120,000 missing people, 391 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:26,880 that statistics tell us are missing every year, some small percentage may have been kidnapped 392 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:35,840 by the D-Rose, that a percentage of the 120,000 missing people, that statistics tell us are 393 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:42,960 missing every year, some small percentage may have been kidnapped by the D-Rose. 394 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,720 Yes, John, we were into that in the... 395 00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:51,680 I mean, you just, I like the way you study. Yes, John. In other words, 396 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:52,480 Well, I, I... 397 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,800 You think actually you really believe this? 398 00:41:56,160 --> 00:42:03,120 Believe that a certain percentage of missing persons cannot be accounted for by normal 399 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:03,680 exploration. 400 00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:10,000 Oh, now please. I agree with you that they cannot be accounted for. Any person who is missing, 401 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,720 and they've never been able to trace him, then they cannot account for him. 402 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:20,080 No, well, my attention is, John, that certain ones, certain of these missing people, 403 00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:26,880 cannot be accounted for by any normal explanation. What I meant by that is by any known 404 00:42:28,240 --> 00:42:28,720 cause. 405 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:35,760 Well, if I leave my home and they never find a body, they never get a letter from me, 406 00:42:36,720 --> 00:42:42,000 they know nothing about me, they never hear of me, would you call that by normal means? 407 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:44,480 You would become a statistic, John. 408 00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:45,440 That's right. 409 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:50,560 So you, Dominic Luchessi, may take this statistic, 410 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,280 and say the D-Rose kidnapped. 411 00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:00,320 Well, there's a possibility, John. I don't know, they might kidnap you. 412 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:00,800 Well, I... 413 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:01,360 I can't tell you. 414 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:01,840 They won't... 415 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,880 That isn't the thing. You honestly believe this, John? 416 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:10,160 Do I honestly believe that the D-Rose particularly kidnapped anyone? 417 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:19,840 My judge, I don't know, Ben, actually, and we were awaiting your getting here in order for you to 418 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,040 try and clarify this one particular point. 419 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:30,720 120,000 people disappeared, and we were discussing the fact that many of these people 420 00:43:30,720 --> 00:43:37,520 disappeared for good reason. Then there's others who do not appear to disappear for any good reason. 421 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,200 In other words, they just go down to the corner store for a pack of cigarettes and never come back. 422 00:43:42,240 --> 00:43:48,800 And John had arrived at that one particular point there where he said there is also a possibility 423 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:56,720 that these people, beside on the spot of the moment, to disappear at that particular time 424 00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:02,080 for no reason. Now, we... we granted that we had two types of people that disappeared. 425 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,640 We had the people that disappeared for good cause, whether they're evading the law 426 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,880 or whether they just want to give it all up and just disappear. 427 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:17,520 And we had the people who disappeared who have no apparent foreknowledge of this 428 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,960 disappearance. Another way... they don't think about it. It's not predetermined. 429 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:22,960 They just happen to do it on the spot at the moment. 430 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:29,040 Well, in order for a disappearance to be successful, it would have to appear that way, wouldn't it? 431 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:34,320 I mean, the very fact that someone is missing and cannot be traced seems to me to be abnormal. 432 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:39,040 And the very fact that someone wants not to be traced means that he would plan it as if it were 433 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,680 the most casual thing as if he were swallowed up. 434 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,200 Not necessarily, because actually I think I myself... 435 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:50,800 If I was going to disappear, I would make sure that I would have certain things with me. 436 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:56,880 I certainly wouldn't disappear in my shake sleeves or disappear in my undershake in the 437 00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:01,200 summertime or disappear in my slippers, so to speak. 438 00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:05,360 Yeah, but if I wanted a successful disappearance, I mean, I don't know how... 439 00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:11,200 I know the most famous case is Judge Crater, who I know a little bit about because I know some of 440 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,000 the people of the Bar Association. So the very thing... 441 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,200 You mean we're going to have an expose of the Judge Crater case this morning? 442 00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,640 No, but I know how it laid up to it. I mean, and the rest of... 443 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,200 He just walked out of the Bar Association one night. 444 00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:29,600 He was going to meet his wife for dinner. He said good night to the elevator operator. 445 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,640 He got into a cab and he was never seen over again. 446 00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:39,280 Now, I think this... I don't know why or how Judge Crater disappeared, but I assure you that if I 447 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:45,520 wanted to make a successful disappearance, I wouldn't go to the bank and draw out a lot of money. 448 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,680 And I wouldn't suddenly order new luggage and I wouldn't have my... 449 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:55,680 have deposits transferred to other banks and all that. I found that I have a tremendous bank account. 450 00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:59,360 I would walk out if it was a... 451 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:08,560 I would walk out with a t-shirt on and the old slats and just disappear. 452 00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:12,320 Because everybody said what could have happened to him? 453 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:16,720 He didn't take any money. He didn't steal any money. He didn't leave the bank, you know what I mean? 454 00:46:16,720 --> 00:46:22,080 And steal the till. He didn't take any luggage. He didn't even take his favorite 455 00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,080 electric razor or his favorite pipe that he smoked. 456 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:31,600 Yeah, this all laid up to the fact that the most important point about making a successful 457 00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:35,040 disappearance is to make it look like it wasn't for disappearance. 458 00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,320 I was wondering, John, whether Judge Crater would have got out of that elevator. 459 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,280 Yeah, I don't know. Maybe he put his head in that button. 460 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,760 He got into a taxi cab and disappeared. 461 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:45,680 Oh, are they... are they certain of that? I mean, they're... 462 00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:51,040 You know, there are rumors that he still wants to stack at the Bar Association Library, but 463 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:53,760 I mean, alas, I heard he's never been found. 464 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:58,000 Well, I don't know, Ben. I don't... I'm not an expert on disappearances, actually. 465 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:04,560 What I am doing here is we were describing this mystery unit, which was started by Richard 466 00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:09,760 us Shaver and Amazing Stories. That was back in 1945. 467 00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:11,520 Yeah, I know. I know about that. 468 00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:18,080 One of Shaver's, more or less, conventions was that many of the people who disappeared, 469 00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:24,160 and he didn't give any particular percentage, he said many of the people who disappeared 470 00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:32,800 are kidnapped by these Dero who reside in the Caverns beneath the air. 471 00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:38,560 One of the Dero's was... Well, according to Shaver, they used them as slaves 472 00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:46,960 and for their own nefarious purposes. The Dero's are supposedly a degenerate race of beings, 473 00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:55,520 very cruel, very evil, very negative. And it was a Shaver's contention that they 474 00:47:55,520 --> 00:48:01,600 did not stop or would not stop at kidnapping a surface being and taking him to the Caverns 475 00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:09,040 for experimental purposes, for purposes of utilizing them for work, and for various other 476 00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:16,800 purposes, which I would not care to mention. Well, all the percentage, say 160,000 successful 477 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:23,120 disappearances that no one knows anything about, and say roughly, say a few percent of these were 478 00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:29,040 caused by Dero's, is very probable that a small percentage, say two or three or five people, 479 00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:33,600 would have escaped from the Dero's and would have come back and told us. Well, we have definite, 480 00:48:34,720 --> 00:48:39,520 well, not definite, but we have stories about people who have escaped from the Dero's. 481 00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:48,080 We always have stories. In fact, Grae Bacher visited a woman in Pennsylvania, I believe, 482 00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:53,120 at the time. I think we should tell, or tell our listeners who Grae Bacher is, you know, 483 00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:56,320 his possibility that somebody may be listening, he didn't hear at my mat particularly. 484 00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:03,280 Oh, I see. Grae Bacher is a researcher. He is a successful businessman who went into 485 00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:12,240 social research. He got extremely interested due to a case of the West Virginia monster, 486 00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:20,640 where these people in Virginia cited some form of thing, and later on, 487 00:49:20,720 --> 00:49:27,840 Grae became associated with Mr. Roberts and myself through the International Foreign Salsa 488 00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:37,040 Bureau, which was run by a person by the name of Albert K. Bender. And one evening, three men came 489 00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:45,760 to Bender's house wearing dark suits and humbred hats. And Mr. Bender was no longer talking. 490 00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:52,400 Now, strangely enough, there are parts of the Shave a Mystery which seemed to parallel 491 00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:59,440 the Bender Mystery. But getting back to Mr. Bacher, Mr. Bacher visited this woman 492 00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:07,760 in Pennsylvania. I can't recall the woman's name. It is on record. I have it. Grae has it. And 493 00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:14,400 Orgy probably has it somewhere at home. And this woman claimed that she had actually lived in the 494 00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:24,240 Caverns for many years. And her story, more or less, and though she didn't have any amazing 495 00:50:24,240 --> 00:50:29,920 stories in her house at the time, or she didn't read science fiction, she happened to be a very old 496 00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:36,320 woman at the time when Grae visited her, she did claim that she had lived in the Caverns, 497 00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:45,680 and her story paralleled what Shave her claimed to be fact. Now, I happened to start something there 498 00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:54,640 which was interesting, and I'd like to bring it up at this time. When I said that this Bender 499 00:50:54,640 --> 00:51:02,400 incident, the Bridgeport incident, that is of Bender being hushed up by three men, strangely 500 00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:14,560 enough, Ray Palmer informed a number of people that the FBI investigated Shave her. And in Palmer's 501 00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:22,400 own words, what they told him was one fact that's quoting from Palmer, was one fact which made it 502 00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:28,880 difficult to drop the mystery. In other words, what these FBI men told Richard S. Shave her, 503 00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:35,760 made it difficult for Shave her to drop the mystery. Not that he would have any way, I doubt that. 504 00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:41,040 But what was this thing? What they told him, I have never been able to find out, and it's just as 505 00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:48,240 much a mystery as what the three men who visited Mr. Albert K. Bender told him, which frightened him, 506 00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:55,280 frightened him so badly that he didn't eat nor sleep for two days, was it, or three days? 507 00:51:56,080 --> 00:52:05,120 For three days, and prior to that, both Augie and myself had known Mr. Bender very intimately. We 508 00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:10,720 were very good friends of Bender's. We were helping him put out this magazine that he used to publish. 509 00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:20,000 He had a worldwide organization. Three days before the event occurred, he had received an article 510 00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:27,520 from me which dealt with some form of interplanetary power, if I recall correctly. It was for a new 511 00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:35,360 column which was to go into his little publication, which was called Space Review. And three days 512 00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:43,200 prior to Bender's visit, Bender had accepted this article and told me that Space Review would be 513 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:51,840 published as usual and that there would be some startling things contained there. Unfortunately, 514 00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:58,640 that particular issue of Space Review which Bender referred to was published. It just never got to 515 00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:03,760 the print, I don't think, Augie, did it? Which one was that, Tom? The English? The final issue before 516 00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:14,400 Bender had to revise it at the request of the three men. There are lots of sources of publications. 517 00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:20,400 Lots of people interested in source research, for instance, Jim Mosley, who's a very fine researcher, 518 00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:26,640 which is a very fine source of man who's never been silenced. There's Van Tassel, there's Van 519 00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:32,960 Damsky, who's never been silenced, who claims all sorts of contacts as Howard Manager, who's never 520 00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:39,280 been visited by three men in black donkeys. There is one thing, Ben, around that time it was the 521 00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:45,680 beginning of a source of groups and they silenced the top group at that time. And as... Well, why 522 00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:49,120 wouldn't they continue this policy? Because they found out they made an error. 523 00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:54,400 Have you ever... Isn't it great Barthas' convention that he's not the only one who's been silenced? 524 00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:58,000 Only what there's been. There were several people that said these three men are visitors? 525 00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:03,920 There was. There was a Gerald of the Australian flying source of bureau. There was a fellow up in 526 00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:10,480 New Zealand, a fellow up in Canada. All of these have been silenced and frightened. 527 00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:16,800 Yeah, well, this point about... Let me get this straight. Ray Palmer said that there was one point 528 00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:23,360 that the FBI men mentioned to him... Not to Palmer, to Shaver. To Shaver. Right. That would not 529 00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:28,800 permit Shaver to drop it because it was so startling. Well, here's Palmer's statement. 530 00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:33,680 And then never went on to say what this statement was. I mean, forgive me for sounding a little 531 00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:39,520 harsh, but this sounds like a typical Palmer action. I mean, I recall a certain piece of metal 532 00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:43,920 that was lost somewhere outside Seattle that was supposed to be definite proof of a source of 533 00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:48,560 landing that was in Murray Island into them. Would you please tell me why you think that was... 534 00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:56,640 A typical Palmer action? Just what I mentioned. What is one particular incident that you mentioned? 535 00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:03,360 You do. Is that a typical Palmer action? In other words, Palmer claims in some book to have lost 536 00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:08,880 a piece of metal. Is that a typical... No, Palmer claims to have a piece of metal. Well, is that a 537 00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:14,000 typical... They then claim the FBI took it away from him and then it was lost in an airplane crash 538 00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:19,600 outside of Seattle. Airplane crash is on record. Two men lost their lives in the crash. I don't 539 00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:28,160 think Palmer would, more or less, what would you say, express slightly anything such as a 540 00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:35,840 crash where two men lost their lives. Augie Roberts is one of the few people I know who actually went 541 00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:44,160 to Murray Island and investigated the scene of this incident. And I think that you did find 542 00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:50,080 that certain points in the story did check as far as you were able to ascertain. Is that correct? 543 00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:55,520 One good point that I would like to know and would like to get the answers of, and that is the fact 544 00:55:55,520 --> 00:56:02,000 that why did the Coast Guard men there, three sets of Coast Guard men there, and they operate this 545 00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:08,000 lighthouse? Actually, Murray Island is a lighthouse station. Why three days later, they were taken 546 00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:12,400 off this lighthouse and sent to another part of the country and three new groups were sent in? 547 00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,320 Don't they regularly rotate these attendants at lighthouses? Lighthouse? 548 00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:21,200 Lighthouse? Well, the point is that the incident could have happened... 549 00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:26,960 The incident could have happened on such and such a day and the next day was the regular 550 00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,240 day for these men to be relieved. We have to allow that possibility. 551 00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:36,720 And in other words, Ben, what you're trying to say is that you do not believe in the silence group. 552 00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:42,240 Is that correct? No. What I'm trying to say is that I don't like anybody coming out and saying that 553 00:56:42,240 --> 00:56:48,240 unfortunately... No, let me put it again. I don't like anyone coming out and saying something that 554 00:56:48,240 --> 00:56:54,400 there was one fact revealed which made it impossible to drop this mystery. Unfortunately, I either 555 00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:58,880 don't know or cannot reveal its fact. This to me is a journalistic stunt. 556 00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:04,400 Well, Ben, actually, let's put it this way. In other words, there is something called X which, 557 00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:09,440 if you know about, would shake you to the very roots, but unfortunately, I can't tell you about it. 558 00:57:10,240 --> 00:57:14,960 Doesn't that possibility exist? I think there are many men in this world right at this very moment 559 00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:21,680 in a position where they know things that would be very shaking in context and they cannot tell 560 00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:27,680 due to security reasons. We don't see where your point holds so much. 561 00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:34,160 Well, this strikingly parallels this incident, the Moray Island incident, where there was a 562 00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:40,320 piece of metal that was supposed to be definitive proof about the interplanetary origin of flying 563 00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:45,440 sources because, first of all, the metal defied chemical analysis or something else, and this 564 00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:50,720 three things was being rushed and all of a sudden it disappeared. Now, this again is the fact that 565 00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:56,640 isn't there. I mean, this is a thing that happens. It's happened twice so far with Palmer's connection 566 00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:04,480 with sources. I'm just pointing out that this is a method which I am very suspicious of. As far as 567 00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:11,440 that, I don't like it. It's sort of untidy as far as I'm concerned. Referring to the fact that, 568 00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:18,320 unfortunately, it cannot be exhibited. This is like taking a secret file into a courtroom and 569 00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:23,200 pointing to it and saying, within this secret file there are documents that prove that this man 570 00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:28,400 is the worst kind of monster. Unfortunately, we cannot open the file, but you should convict this 571 00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:36,560 man. I mean, it is a low trick, actually. Well, tell me, Ben, let's assume the hypothesis that 572 00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:44,400 you and I were investigating a certain phenomena in reference to flying sources. And you happened to 573 00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:53,360 obtain a metallic object or a space clock or a space instrument of some type that would definitely 574 00:58:54,080 --> 00:59:02,240 establish the fact that this particular vehicle is manufactured by a superior technology far 575 00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:10,720 beyond our own. And the FBI came to your house and they said to you, Ben, we don't want you to 576 00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:18,080 divulge the information about this particular clock. In other words, we don't care, go out and 577 00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:26,080 say anything else you want, but don't mention this space clock or this space speed instrument. 578 00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:33,280 Don't mention it. As a good citizen, we're putting you on your honor not to state this one particular 579 00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:39,040 fact of the incident. State anything else you want. Say you saw the saucer. Say you were in it, 580 00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:47,200 but don't state this particular fact. And then you, as my co-worker in attempting to arrive at 581 00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:54,800 a solution to this problem, you would not say to me, well, Dom, you're wasting your time. You 582 00:59:54,800 --> 01:00:00,640 might as well stop right now. I happen to know what the answer is, but I can't tell you. Stop 583 01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:06,960 wasting your money. Don't take any more photographs. It's useless because I know, you mean to tell me, 584 01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:10,640 you wouldn't tell me anything at all, in other words. I'll tell you exactly what I would do. 585 01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:15,200 Unfortunately, it's a hypothetical case, so it can never be proven and it may sound a little bit 586 01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:22,800 of a sham, but I, for one, am certainly the FBI would never approach me in that respect. And if 587 01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:27,840 they did, I would tell them to go jump in the lake. Well, I don't think that you'd get away with it. 588 01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:33,520 I don't think you would. Then I tell them to declare this object national security material 589 01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:39,600 to classify and take it away. They probably would immediately. But they didn't take this away from 590 01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:45,040 Ray Palmer. They made him promise that this does not sound like, I'm not familiar with FBI 591 01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:50,160 technique, but this does not sound like FBI technique. You don't get promises from people. If 592 01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:55,040 something is important to the national security, it is not in your possession anymore. It is 593 01:00:55,040 --> 01:01:01,040 classified, taken away. In other words, what you're saying is that a man, Palmer, must be about 42 594 01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:05,280 years old. I believe is that right? I think so, John. All right. A man that's lived 42 years 595 01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:09,520 is not entitled to two particular incidents in his life, which don't make sense to Ben 596 01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:15,520 Esquitz. That's why his flying sources are concerned. Then I feel this way. That don't seem to ring 597 01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:19,840 true to me. Then I don't think you actually mean what you said. Then I feel this way, but if you 598 01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:26,240 didn't adhere to the FBI ruling, we would miss you around here. Fine. Then they'd have to come into 599 01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:30,560 a court and they'd have to say. I don't think you would get that far to a court. I don't. 600 01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:32,680 Why do you people would be missing? Like you do. 601 01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:38,720 Are you suggesting that the FBI would not agree if they don't agree with Ben Esquitz? They just take 602 01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:43,680 him and without a without a warrant for his arrest or a search warrant for his home or anything 603 01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:50,240 like that, they just pick him up. There's a possibility. Oh, stop. By the way, I hope all good FBI 604 01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:56,960 men are sound asleep tonight. I certainly. I'm absolutely surprised. That is an incredible 605 01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:03,440 thing. Well, I certainly hope they would actually because if you're 606 01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:10,400 endangering the national security, I think any method would be appropriate at that particular 607 01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:15,600 moment. I'd rather go by the laws, not the books. That's the way I want. Yeah, I'm 608 01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:19,440 fortunate. I mean, very fortunately, there's still something in this country called the 609 01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:25,360 process and the FBI could not lock me up. But I assure you that I don't know very much about the 610 01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:29,600 law, but I assure you I'd have a habeas corpus action served in twenty four hours and they'd have 611 01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:33,840 to bring me to trial and they'd have to tell me why I am being brought to trial. And if I go to 612 01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:40,320 prison, why I am going to prison and then if I'm stealing the classified security material or 613 01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:45,680 something like that, then it would come out. I think this is a much better way. Well, then 614 01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:51,280 you think that you should have the right to tell them, right? Yes, I think I think I think if 615 01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:55,840 something definitely proves interplanetary origin and sources, people should be told. 616 01:02:56,480 --> 01:03:00,720 Augie Roberts, Dominic Luchessi and Ben Ishwick. Ben? 617 01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:09,760 You know, we were talking about the facts about what direct proof of the interplanetary origin 618 01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:15,040 of sources would mean. Now, I happen to, the reason I'm pretty sure I would behave this way and the 619 01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:21,760 reason why I think this is a very important point is essentially this, is that I think that if the, 620 01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:28,960 it is true that sources are of interplanetary origin, this is the greatest news fact in the 621 01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:34,880 last two thousand years, practically. The fact that there is another civilization existing on 622 01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:40,400 another planet somewhere that is capable of such a technology that is, that has, by some way, made 623 01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:45,920 some sort of discovery of our world. It's very important from a number of things. I remember 624 01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:51,680 one night after the show, having coffee with Charlie Liedem and talking about it, and more or 625 01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:57,760 less we came to the idea that if this civilization had advanced through a technology which could 626 01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:04,080 send sources to our world, they're far ahead of us in many respects. And history teaches the one 627 01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:10,000 sad fact that every time one culture that is technologically superior to another comes in 628 01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:17,120 contact with an inferior culture. That inferior culture soon vanishes. Now, it's only for this 629 01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:25,040 reason it's very important about the truth or the falseness of sources stories and source reports. 630 01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:31,440 For this reason, I'm very interested in it, and for a lot of reasons I don't like a lot of the 631 01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:38,480 wildness and a lot of the lunatic fringe that go on about sources. Now, there is one concrete 632 01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:43,600 fact that I keep on going over which I will put forth as what I consider to be a fact. 633 01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:49,040 The one most significant thing in sources, the one that made me change my mind, the one that made me 634 01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:55,840 think, there is something flying around up there, which is as far as I'll go, was the Washington, 635 01:04:55,840 --> 01:05:03,760 the second Washington sightings. Now, the district of Columbia, right. Now, this is something that 636 01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:11,760 was concrete, was seen by several people, was radar contact and visual contact at the same time, 637 01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:19,120 contact by pursuit planes, interceptors ships sent up by the Air Force. This to me is a concrete 638 01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:26,640 fact, not the piece of metal that disappears and not the information told to somebody which I can't 639 01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:33,120 reveal to you, unfortunately, but would stun you if I told you. Now, this is why I perhaps 640 01:05:33,200 --> 01:05:39,120 am a little pedantic on this point. You don't believe it? Well, what I'd like to get at is one 641 01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:43,680 point there, and I'd like to know how we got on flying saucers. Well, we're talking about what I 642 01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:48,800 came in. I thought we were talking about flying saucers. No, it's just mentioned it at one time, 643 01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:52,800 but actually we haven't been discussing it. Especially from outer space. I don't believe in 644 01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:57,680 outer space. I'm not talking about saucers from outer space. I'm talking about beings who reside 645 01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:04,480 in the caverns beneath the earth. You think these three men in dark suits were not FBI agents? 646 01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:09,760 They were deros? I don't know, Ben. I think personally, as my own personal opinion, 647 01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:14,720 that they were definitely from some agency of the government, our government, our government. 648 01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:20,640 And I'd go so far as to say that I think that there are agencies in our government which are far 649 01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:29,360 more secret and far more powerful than the FBI. That's only an opinion on my part, of course. 650 01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:38,240 And actually what we were getting at was the point where I was just explaining what Shaver told 651 01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:44,080 Palmer and which Palmer related as having been told him by Shaver. I certainly did give no 652 01:06:44,080 --> 01:06:50,720 depth in that opinion on what I thought in particular about anything that Shaver had said 653 01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:55,440 to Palmer being true or about Palmer saying anything true to Shaver or to anyone else. 654 01:06:56,080 --> 01:07:02,320 All I am doing is recounting the Shaver mystery which I found extremely interesting. 655 01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:07,760 I did not say anything about truth. I did not say anything about fact or fiction. 656 01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:14,640 That is what I am trying to find out. I said there are many interesting facets of this particular 657 01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:21,200 mystery which are intriguing by their very nature and which lead one into certain fields of research 658 01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:28,640 which in themselves are extremely interesting. Now what I would like to do is sort of give a 659 01:07:28,640 --> 01:07:32,880 resume to Binnie O' up to date then on the whole mystery, which I haven't done all evening actually, 660 01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:41,440 from the very beginning. I won't go into the actual publication of it. I've related that before. 661 01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:48,960 What I would like to do is give you Shaver's version of history on earth, a history which 662 01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:58,000 started according to Shaver 20,000 years ago. Shaver claimed that 20,000 years ago there 663 01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:04,320 were the race of beings who lived on the earth and they called themselves Titans and Atlants, 664 01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:12,960 which is sort of parallel with Atlantis. Now actually strangely enough, now one of the first 665 01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:19,520 things I did when I began to read Shaver, I don't believe what I read contrary to what you may think. 666 01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:27,120 If there was a book written many years ago, I've never had the opportunity of seeing the book. I 667 01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:33,760 have only seen it in bibliographies. I've seen it referred to and that was, I believe and correct 668 01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:38,960 me if you know anything about this author. I fell by the name of, I think it was pronounced 669 01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:45,760 Bulwar Leitne. Anybody know that by that name? Bulwar Leitne. 670 01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:47,440 Why Y-P-T-O-N? 671 01:08:47,440 --> 01:08:50,800 Why L-W-A-R, something like that. 672 01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:52,000 How'd you feel about that name? 673 01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:58,160 L-Y-T-O-N-A, something like that. Now this is something that I saw referred to and he wrote a 674 01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:04,080 book called The Coming Race, which did refer to an underground race of beings and he certainly 675 01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:12,400 referred to it long before Shaver ever considered receiving voices from a welding machine. 676 01:09:13,680 --> 01:09:18,000 Now Shaver claims that these thought records which he received through this welding machine 677 01:09:18,880 --> 01:09:26,800 consisted of a history of this planet, the planet Earth. It is Shaver's claim that these beings 678 01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:35,680 actually colonized the Earth all ages ago, way back in the past and that when we get to the 679 01:09:35,680 --> 01:09:42,400 20,000 year period of the present, I mean a strange to call 20,000 years the present, 680 01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:48,080 but according to Shaver, 20,000 years ago these people they had a superior science. 681 01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:55,440 They had vehicles which were similar in design to what we term today flying saucers 682 01:09:56,240 --> 01:10:03,360 and remember Shaver was speaking of saucers many, well not many years but previous to 683 01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:11,280 Kenneth Arnold's original siren. He claimed these Titans and Atlants found out that a sun, 684 01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:21,680 a star such as ours, as it ages it throws out detrimental rays of energy which cause age. 685 01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:27,040 According to Shaver, these beings, these Titans and Atlants used to live to be 1,000 years old 686 01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:35,120 and they found that as the sun aged and the reactions changed, 687 01:10:35,120 --> 01:10:41,280 these sun began throwing out these detrimental rays of energy which caused age. 688 01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:48,960 Therefore they constructed these vast network of caverns beneath the Earth in order to escape 689 01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:54,480 the direct rays of the sun and put enough Earth between them as sort of an insulation 690 01:10:55,200 --> 01:11:02,160 against this detrimental energy which was radiating from the sun. Now when they went down 691 01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:09,520 into the caverns they brought with them a vast array of scientific mechanisms consisting of 692 01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:18,320 fantastic machines which could teleport objects, which could move things at a distance, 693 01:11:19,040 --> 01:11:26,960 which could melt Earth in any known element. Actually they may have had the power of the 694 01:11:26,960 --> 01:11:33,120 element which Blavatsky refers to in her book and she called it BRIL, V-R-I-L. 695 01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:41,840 This BRIL was supposed to be some type of sidereal force which would mean some type of 696 01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:46,800 cosmic energy which they had harnessed and utilized for their own purposes. 697 01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:52,000 Shaver also claimed that these Titans were very large in size. I wouldn't say 698 01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:58,640 what he called them giants, I wouldn't say that he meant 100 foot tall, but he 699 01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:04,960 claimed these people to be about 15, 20 feet tall. Now they went into the caverns and then 700 01:12:05,920 --> 01:12:10,000 they brought these mechanisms with them to implement the rays of the sun which they were no 701 01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:16,960 longer exposed to. Now as these mechanisms in some way drew their energy from the surface, 702 01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:23,840 these mechanisms actually instead of throwing out the beneficial rays they were designed for, 703 01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:30,480 after a period of time these mechanisms became contaminated by a detrimental 704 01:12:31,920 --> 01:12:38,240 source of energy. In other words they became contaminated and began to throw out a detrimental 705 01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:42,880 energy which degenerated and degenerated the race which was living in the caverns. 706 01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:52,160 And according to Shaver the Titans and the Atlants escaped the earth and went to another planet in 707 01:12:52,160 --> 01:12:57,360 these spaceships which were similar as I said before to the sources of today. 708 01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:06,480 And his claim is that Atlantis or Atlant or Lemuria or Mu did not sink beneath the ocean. In other 709 01:13:06,480 --> 01:13:12,080 words throughout the ages these legends have become misconstrued that in actually what it was 710 01:13:12,080 --> 01:13:19,200 referring to was that the people went beneath the earth, the people of this particular continent. 711 01:13:21,040 --> 01:13:29,680 The engineer just brought in this note and it refers to the book that I was trying to tell 712 01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:39,440 you about before Ben and the name of the book is The Coming Race by Ward Lighton I believe 713 01:13:39,440 --> 01:13:45,040 published in London in 1891 by George Rutledge and son and that was the book I didn't know that 714 01:13:45,040 --> 01:13:51,280 quite that much information about it. I had recalled seeing it referred to in various publications. 715 01:13:52,640 --> 01:13:59,440 So there it is, that's about a speculation of it, these deros being degenerate beings, not all of 716 01:13:59,440 --> 01:14:06,080 course because according to Shaver there are two rows who have managed to escape the harmful rays of 717 01:14:06,080 --> 01:14:13,680 these mechs as he calls them and strangely enough the word in phonetic tongue, in other words the 718 01:14:13,680 --> 01:14:21,280 tongue that Shaver claims to have received as being the basic tongue of man due to which phonetic 719 01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:28,560 character lends itself to a wide admittedly wide interpretation and it seems that mech seems to 720 01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:34,640 work out just right in this phonetic spelling that is M-E-K but these ray mechs as these 721 01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:41,840 as Shaver calls and what that these people supposedly have had control of they utilize for 722 01:14:41,840 --> 01:14:48,320 fiendish and diabolical purposes in other words they harass surface beings with these rays just as a 723 01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:56,720 child would sort of tantalize an ant and they create what the psychic what we call psychic 724 01:14:56,720 --> 01:15:05,440 phenomena they do this purely as a as a fiendish diversion more or less and that they do create 725 01:15:05,440 --> 01:15:12,000 accidents air accidents they create all types of strange disappearances and disturbances on a 726 01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:20,080 surface and he and including and Shaver included this the ignition of people who are sitting in 727 01:15:20,080 --> 01:15:24,000 their in their living room and they're the only things in the whole room that are destroyed or 728 01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:30,320 consumed you're familiar with that and that's about it then did i leave anything out that you 729 01:15:30,320 --> 01:15:35,760 would be curious about or anything you would like to know no you brought the point that i remember 730 01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:40,400 i'm reading the last thing shaver wrote in a magazine that ray palm would publish 731 01:15:42,560 --> 01:15:49,680 it was uh i think a saucer issue of amazing stories and ray palm edited that one issue 732 01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:54,720 again or it was amazing sources story there's something and shaver had an article in which he 733 01:15:54,720 --> 01:16:02,800 claimed uh which he made a claim obviously again that the sources are actually the deros riding 734 01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:07,120 around in the ship still with their superior technology there's one thing i'd like to know 735 01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:11,840 is that if why do they just bother harassing us why don't they just i mean since they're so superior 736 01:16:11,840 --> 01:16:16,800 and fiendish and diabolical why don't they just take back the surface of the planet again well 737 01:16:16,880 --> 01:16:21,680 probably they're conditioning their environment they are accustomed to it actually their cabin 738 01:16:21,680 --> 01:16:27,520 world would be to them what our what our world is to us strangely enough one point i did forget 739 01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:33,680 that then the shaver claims that the saucers that we see today are not here for the betterment of 740 01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:39,600 humanity they are not here to help anyone they are here they are from other planets plundering 741 01:16:40,400 --> 01:16:44,880 the mechanisms these wonderful mechanisms which are in the caves in other ways they are here 742 01:16:45,440 --> 01:16:49,760 to take these mechanisms back to their own planet they are plundering the caves 743 01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:56,720 and that's what shaver claimed now i think what we should do at this time down link is explain to 744 01:16:56,720 --> 01:17:04,560 our listeners the details of this test that you intend to conduct well john uh before i go into 745 01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:11,840 the actual details i would like to relate a little test augie and myself conducted a few years back 746 01:17:12,480 --> 01:17:18,640 and it was in reference to a damskies book now in a damskies book there was a plate 747 01:17:19,440 --> 01:17:25,520 photographic plate which supposedly was thrown out of the saucer in which a damski picked up 748 01:17:26,400 --> 01:17:34,000 and he claimed that this plate when it was developed had an odd diagram of a disc on it 749 01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:43,280 and it had this strange writing now we happen to find that this writing was similar to 750 01:17:44,160 --> 01:17:53,680 adu which is a hindu form of writing so augie and i sat down and we took phonetically we 751 01:17:53,680 --> 01:18:02,160 deciphered the hindu into phonetic terms and then we took the hindu and we put it into the 752 01:18:02,160 --> 01:18:12,240 shoulder alphabet man tongue shaver called it and we derived from this translation a strange 753 01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:17,680 message which i think augie has more or less memorized since then do you recall the message 754 01:18:17,680 --> 01:18:24,560 augie for the message who is down will you and all men stay away disintegrating powers 755 01:18:24,560 --> 01:18:30,560 whose source in sun's energy will destroy life oh another way more or less keep the work from 756 01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:36,960 atomic powers that's about the way i know you recall at the time that it took us about 757 01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:42,640 their writing dollars eight hours to do the job and that was to double check ourselves actually 758 01:18:43,360 --> 01:18:49,520 now what i would like to do if the listeners have their pencil and papers ready i would like to 759 01:18:49,840 --> 01:19:02,480 give them the phonetic version of nanturn which was supposedly the alphabet used by the titans 760 01:19:03,040 --> 01:19:12,640 and atlans whom occupied this planet prior to 20 000 years ago now if everyone is ready we're 761 01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:23,680 going to give the first letter which is a our a stands for animal can be used as an for short in 762 01:19:23,680 --> 01:19:33,520 other words in that's the letter a now the next letter is b which meant in the sanction tongue 763 01:19:34,480 --> 01:19:41,440 according to shaver of course to exist to be to exist the letter b 764 01:19:42,960 --> 01:19:56,640 now c pronounced in phonetic alphabet con c o n it means to see to comprehend and to understand 765 01:19:58,560 --> 01:20:09,440 the next letter is d d e which is detrimental d i s this for short 766 01:20:09,440 --> 01:20:23,120 that's a mental energy concept in that whether d actually used as d e then we have e which means 767 01:20:23,120 --> 01:20:45,040 energy and motion f which means fecum f e c u n d used at e at e g is a concept of generation 768 01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:56,160 to generate h has a metaphysical connotation even shaver himself admitted that he couldn't quite 769 01:20:56,720 --> 01:21:06,800 understand the ancient concept behind the letter h he know he knew it had something to do with h 770 01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:19,440 man h men or human etc etc i the letter i stands for ego or self now j stands strangely enough for 771 01:21:20,240 --> 01:21:25,040 generation but a different form of generation it would be what is was known to the atlans 772 01:21:25,040 --> 01:21:34,160 as animal generation and it is associated all likened to the letter g only with the difference 773 01:21:34,240 --> 01:21:43,520 of being an animal association to generation k stands for kinetics or the power of motion etc 774 01:21:44,720 --> 01:21:52,720 l is for life a good word example actually to use in this part of the alphabet would be the word 775 01:21:53,280 --> 01:22:02,080 in our language vital vital which we will use later and we will derive the meaning from n is from 776 01:22:02,080 --> 01:22:18,640 n is for seed or spore sort of a source concept o stands for orifice p stood for power q stood for 777 01:22:18,640 --> 01:22:31,040 quest r is a horror symbol danger used as a r which in the ancient tongue supposedly meant a 778 01:22:31,040 --> 01:22:47,680 dangerous quantity of the sentiment force s stands for sun used s is s is is t is the most important 779 01:22:47,680 --> 01:22:57,360 symbol it stands for the force of growth according to shaver it the actual key concept was the cause 780 01:22:58,080 --> 01:23:03,520 for the intake of gravity which is a little difficult to comprehend actually 781 01:23:05,120 --> 01:23:12,960 t i c which is still working from the letter t is the science of growth and integration 782 01:23:14,480 --> 01:23:26,800 u stands for u as an individual u v stands for vital can also be used as v i also does an animal 783 01:23:26,800 --> 01:23:37,120 magnetism concept attached to the letter v w stands for will the power of will x is a conflict 784 01:23:37,920 --> 01:23:48,400 and according to shaver was created to depict force lines crossing y stands for the word 785 01:23:48,400 --> 01:23:56,880 w h y which is sort of a question or reason z stands for zero and according to shaver meant a 786 01:23:56,880 --> 01:24:05,600 quantity of t which is an integrative energy neutralized by an equal quantity of d which is 787 01:24:05,600 --> 01:24:13,920 more or less this integral energy also stands for utility now i can't recall were there any other 788 01:24:13,920 --> 01:24:22,080 letters there or that i miss any miss x miss x i i say mentioned that conflict yeah now and nz 789 01:24:22,080 --> 01:24:27,920 actually is the zero quantity according to shaver that was the z as a quantity of t 790 01:24:27,920 --> 01:24:35,040 neutralized by an equal quantity of d the d also could mean the utility of some type according to 791 01:24:35,040 --> 01:24:46,640 shaver now basically this alphabet will work out in different languages supposedly and according 792 01:24:46,640 --> 01:24:54,240 to shaver it will not work or does not work to a large degree in the romanian languages such as italian 793 01:24:54,960 --> 01:25:03,440 and french i've tried it myself in these languages and i find that it's extremely difficult to derive 794 01:25:03,440 --> 01:25:13,040 any meaning from the word whatever word we try to decipher now i want to go back to the word vital 795 01:25:13,040 --> 01:25:22,320 just to give an idea of just how this alphabet would work now vital is a vital force an animal 796 01:25:22,320 --> 01:25:35,600 magnetism vi t is integration a is animal and l is life which would give a sort of a concept 797 01:25:36,320 --> 01:25:45,600 of power of vital force actually the word vital and the vi which shaver claims practically meant 798 01:25:45,600 --> 01:25:51,280 vital would stand for itself more or less so therefore it's an easy word to work with 799 01:25:53,040 --> 01:26:01,360 now then have you got any ideas on this alphabet you know it sounds exactly like a cabala to me 800 01:26:01,360 --> 01:26:11,040 with certain letters it's sounding like i'm intrigued by these things the letter y means the word 801 01:26:11,040 --> 01:26:20,640 y and that the letter i means the ego or essentially i and this is something that's sort of very 802 01:26:20,640 --> 01:26:26,640 interesting to me it's sort of the identification you make between the sound of a letter and a word 803 01:26:26,640 --> 01:26:32,400 which always happens in phonetic alphabets what more it's it's it's more than phonetic when 804 01:26:32,400 --> 01:26:39,120 you identify the letter y with the word y see shaver admits that this is not complete but he 805 01:26:39,120 --> 01:26:47,040 does claim that this will work out in certain words now i have found through use of it that it does 806 01:26:47,040 --> 01:26:53,600 work out now whether shaver here created what we made to him a generalized alphabet 807 01:26:54,400 --> 01:27:00,240 which to me seems a little difficult for one of shaver's uh standing actually well what was 808 01:27:00,240 --> 01:27:05,600 that then well i mean he must have got the idea from somewhere now i don't say that he necessarily 809 01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:12,240 got it from the caves or that it was the original alphabet used by the people of earth in other 810 01:27:12,240 --> 01:27:19,360 words the mother tongue of the planet i do say that it is interesting and i think that if the 811 01:27:19,360 --> 01:27:27,920 listeners would use a few words and work this out and write to long yarn in care of this station i 812 01:27:27,920 --> 01:27:33,040 think that they could uh we could actually have something to work with in other words we could 813 01:27:33,040 --> 01:27:40,080 have a quantity of derivations which should be interesting don't you think so but the point 814 01:27:40,080 --> 01:27:46,400 that intrigues me is that if this is uh the alphabet of a language that is prior to all known 815 01:27:46,400 --> 01:27:53,360 languages and which is uh as you put out that doesn't even fit in with romance languages why in the 816 01:27:53,360 --> 01:27:59,280 world do they have the 26 letters of the 26 arabic letters i mean i couldn't understand why why 817 01:27:59,280 --> 01:28:05,360 wouldn't they for instance have uh well why wouldn't they have uh say 56 letters in their alphabet and 818 01:28:05,360 --> 01:28:10,560 why shouldn't the first letter be odd the second letter uh is epic or something like that well 819 01:28:10,560 --> 01:28:16,560 according to sheila he claims that gradually through certain sort of forces which react on humanity 820 01:28:16,560 --> 01:28:24,480 or surface beings that the original language of the titans is again being revived in other words 821 01:28:24,480 --> 01:28:30,320 our english language is one of the closest languages to the original mother tongue of the planet earth 822 01:28:30,400 --> 01:28:34,320 well that would mean that the language of the ancient finitions finitions was almost identical 823 01:28:34,320 --> 01:28:40,160 with the pharaohs because the alphabet comes from the finitions mostly well the finitions actually 824 01:28:40,160 --> 01:28:48,880 were after the cataclysm now remember that all this uh shaver mystery depends on the fact of a 825 01:28:48,880 --> 01:28:55,280 race of beings which inhabit the earth in pre-catechismic times man to rep the moment gentlemen i had to 826 01:28:55,280 --> 01:29:03,120 step out of the studio so that i could go to the newsroom and i was just wondering have you 827 01:29:03,120 --> 01:29:10,320 definitely set up the yes we've set up the alphabet uh johan i believe the listeners who are interested 828 01:29:10,320 --> 01:29:18,240 have copied it down okay and uh i'm quite sure that uh if they derive anything whether it's 829 01:29:18,240 --> 01:29:23,440 negative or positive on this i think that uh you will know what do you think should anal is 830 01:29:23,440 --> 01:29:27,280 is there something to be analyzed here no more or less johan it's just a matter of the 831 01:29:28,320 --> 01:29:34,560 interpretation well and what did you suggest for them to do to send it in to me that's right i think 832 01:29:34,560 --> 01:29:38,720 we should put something on there because i don't want to open up all these letters i'd rather turn 833 01:29:38,720 --> 01:29:44,960 them over to you or to ben ben do you think that there's a cybernetician this doesn't count 834 01:29:44,960 --> 01:29:49,920 that this is not a branch of cybernetics i'd be happy to figure them out right i'll tell you why 835 01:29:49,920 --> 01:29:56,800 i'm trying to figure out the words cybernetics myself but right now if you'll send your answer 836 01:29:56,800 --> 01:30:13,040 to uh to ben isquit isq u ith ben isquit isq u ith care of long john station w o i new york 18 837 01:30:14,400 --> 01:30:19,760 now don't include it in a letter that you may send to me because i will not have the opportunity 838 01:30:19,760 --> 01:30:26,000 of reading these will give them the ben ben internal contact mr luchessian mr roberts and 839 01:30:26,000 --> 01:30:31,040 maybe in another three four weeks from now we'll take a few minutes to talk about it and find out 840 01:30:31,040 --> 01:30:36,960 what happened you agree ben very fine i'd be very i think it would be very interesting john to see 841 01:30:36,960 --> 01:30:43,680 what happens an hb to word cybernetics works out very well using the shaver alphabet would you 842 01:30:43,680 --> 01:30:50,160 tell us more about that place well cybernetics again we have concept in the alphabet and that's 843 01:30:50,160 --> 01:30:55,520 the difficult part it's a mental concept that this supposed to convey when a word is broken down 844 01:30:55,520 --> 01:30:59,680 about pardon me a moment if i'm in a row as you realize i haven't stepped out of the studio for 845 01:30:59,680 --> 01:31:04,560 a couple of minutes can you say concept is this in relationship to concept therapy is there any 846 01:31:04,560 --> 01:31:10,960 no jerry no connection whatsoever that i know very interesting stuff uh but cybernetics works out 847 01:31:10,960 --> 01:31:17,920 would be something like uh the sea and cybernetics and they're actually the sea and cybernetics would 848 01:31:17,920 --> 01:31:27,680 mean to comprehend co-in comprehend why would see concept too uh why wouldn't it be confident 849 01:31:27,680 --> 01:31:34,880 comprehend no no it's a it's a it's a mental concept it's a source concept germ and the sea 850 01:31:34,880 --> 01:31:42,400 would mean to comprehend or to understand the why is used as a question mark is why 851 01:31:43,520 --> 01:31:52,960 why do we have to understand the b is we have to understand to exist these stands for to exist 852 01:31:54,640 --> 01:32:02,000 e i hope i have the words go right by the way see what b r and c i stick right um 853 01:32:02,720 --> 01:32:08,000 there was i've been here so just kidding yeah doing this yeah in other words why do we have 854 01:32:08,000 --> 01:32:17,280 what do we have to see to exist for us um uh e is energy and r naturally is the horror concept 855 01:32:17,280 --> 01:32:23,280 because behind all energy what they mean by that is in energy there is danger and that is the way 856 01:32:23,280 --> 01:32:30,160 more or less shaver himself interpreted the alphabet in energy there is danger in other words 857 01:32:30,160 --> 01:32:37,680 why do we have to comprehend in energy there is danger the source of this energy is basically 858 01:32:37,680 --> 01:32:45,280 integrative indicated by the t and then it finishes the word off what i see i see and then the s 859 01:32:45,840 --> 01:32:53,200 say in other words i see and then we have the s concept now just what is s i lost it from sun 860 01:32:54,000 --> 01:33:00,880 i see sun or a source of energy sys in other words c is so there we have cybernetics which 861 01:33:00,880 --> 01:33:06,560 actually doesn't work out too badly in using the shaver alphabet well it may not work so 862 01:33:06,560 --> 01:33:10,400 barely but i don't understand what any of these things have to do with cybernetics i mean i wrote 863 01:33:10,400 --> 01:33:17,200 the thing i don't know what you are i think it is there well the word actually actually comes from 864 01:33:17,280 --> 01:33:24,000 a great group which means stairs but cybernetics actually as it is used today is a comprehension 865 01:33:24,640 --> 01:33:32,400 of the mind applied to a mechanical function in other words mind function applied to a mechanical 866 01:33:32,400 --> 01:33:38,480 function in order to gain knowledge isn't it correct i mean would that be a proper explanation 867 01:33:39,040 --> 01:33:45,360 it would be so that would be adequate i think that's fair shaver is a explanation would be 868 01:33:45,360 --> 01:33:50,800 adequate also yeah well i mean because this is very intriguing because when i when i try to 869 01:33:50,800 --> 01:33:55,840 decide for the word cybernetics in this alphabet i got i got nothing that makes sense to me i got 870 01:33:55,840 --> 01:34:00,320 to see why to exist energy dangerously and so on and this is very this reminds me of something that's 871 01:34:00,320 --> 01:34:07,440 very odd it has always intrigued me is that when shakespeare died his tombstone was caused in a 872 01:34:07,440 --> 01:34:12,880 very puzzling fashion with capital certain letters capitalized certain letters not capitalized 873 01:34:13,760 --> 01:34:18,160 one word broken up spaces in between them and everyone has that all down down throughout the 874 01:34:18,160 --> 01:34:22,880 ages is convinced that shakespeare left a very important coded message in his tombstone 875 01:34:24,000 --> 01:34:30,160 and they've been several attempts and i think one man recently decoded that tombstone really said 876 01:34:30,160 --> 01:34:37,440 i was really marlowe or something like that and that the original script of hamlet is buried in 877 01:34:37,520 --> 01:34:44,480 some scottish castle now sg pearlman was one of america's most famous humorous once wrote one of 878 01:34:44,480 --> 01:34:49,680 the most brilliantly funny articles i ever read in the new yorker and right after this man had 879 01:34:49,680 --> 01:34:56,400 tried to decipher shakespeare's tombstone and he went to grand tomb and he was he just decided 880 01:34:56,400 --> 01:35:03,680 there was some hidden cipher in grand tomb and it said the very the very mystifying message ulysses 881 01:35:04,000 --> 01:35:09,360 grant is buried here you know and this is of course the pearlman they immediately suggested 882 01:35:09,360 --> 01:35:14,880 all sorts of coded possibilities and he worked out a system very close to the man who had figured 883 01:35:14,880 --> 01:35:20,960 out that shakespeare's tomb actually said i was really marlowe and he worked out a system where 884 01:35:20,960 --> 01:35:28,960 he got that the inscription on grant's tomb said robert e lee is really buried here now isn't 885 01:35:28,960 --> 01:35:33,680 there sounding conclusion and just as valid as the other one that what i really want to point 886 01:35:33,680 --> 01:35:39,600 out is that when you look for something you're going to find that especially in uh in uh cryptogram 887 01:35:40,480 --> 01:35:46,880 absolutely and i i agree with you 100 percent there that uh i i don't say this alphabet is 888 01:35:46,880 --> 01:35:54,240 is a direct revelation to shaver through thought records from a civilization which existed in 889 01:35:54,240 --> 01:35:59,440 pre cataclysmic times but i say the same thing you said i say it's extremely interesting to work 890 01:35:59,440 --> 01:36:06,640 with the shape of mystery is an intriguing mystery in itself there is a lot of information relating 891 01:36:06,640 --> 01:36:13,600 to the shape of mystery which is dangerous for people to pursue in other words there in other 892 01:36:13,600 --> 01:36:20,480 words there are you know darrows would retaliate it is claimed the bill had retaliated at tenons 893 01:36:20,720 --> 01:36:25,600 uh it is also claimed that we have one great science fiction writer a fellow by the name of 894 01:36:25,600 --> 01:36:33,280 el taylor hanson who by the way strangely enough used to write for amazing stories he became interested 895 01:36:33,280 --> 01:36:42,640 in the shape of mystery and el taylor hanson disappeared while on a trip into the desert in 896 01:36:42,640 --> 01:36:52,640 california to relocate a large bore there was some type of a bore which went down into the earth 897 01:36:53,520 --> 01:37:03,200 and according to what can be still derived from this information uh hanson described this bore 898 01:37:03,200 --> 01:37:11,680 as having smooth glazed sides and uh i can't recall exactly if it was square around and uh 899 01:37:11,760 --> 01:37:17,680 taylor el taylor hanson went again to relocate it and he was never heard from again but isn't there 900 01:37:17,680 --> 01:37:23,440 a uh aren't there supposed to be certain methods of tempting deros to show i understood that it's 901 01:37:23,440 --> 01:37:29,920 uh that if you're alone at night and if you're on the floor you're shot i don't believe in deros 902 01:37:29,920 --> 01:37:35,440 that a dero will appear and also if you try it so i've never tried it i mean i'll tempt the fbi 903 01:37:35,440 --> 01:37:42,240 but i won't tempt deros but i noticed also that if you uh that the another way is that if you 904 01:37:42,240 --> 01:37:48,560 if you publicly state that there are no such things as deros then you dare deros to do anything to you 905 01:37:49,200 --> 01:37:53,440 but the deros will get rid of you but they'll do it in such a way that it looks like a normal accident 906 01:37:54,160 --> 01:37:59,920 well i i wouldn't know then so far i've been talking about deros for quite a while and i may 907 01:38:00,240 --> 01:38:06,800 have never you've never ever worried about it and uh a little later in the program i am carrying 908 01:38:06,800 --> 01:38:13,840 on my personal an actual photograph of a dero of what is claimed to be a dero i'm sorry text to 909 01:38:13,840 --> 01:38:20,800 montan's one it's uh i this one here i think even you will admit has possibilities of being a being 910 01:38:21,440 --> 01:38:27,760 from a cavern is it the same thing the text to montan's uh i doubt it's them i doubt i think this 911 01:38:27,840 --> 01:38:32,640 is no one of its kind of inexistence is it all well it's the only one of that type but i also 912 01:38:32,640 --> 01:38:40,800 have home a uh drawing of a supposed dero which is quite interesting well i think this photograph as 913 01:38:40,800 --> 01:38:46,000 soon as we show ben i think that he will change his order and that's all right and a dero is a type 914 01:38:46,000 --> 01:38:53,840 of microscopic microscopic worm i mean is that what you're referring to no a dero derived derived 915 01:38:53,840 --> 01:39:00,800 the name from detrimental row or detrimental robot and uh actually it was uh the cause it was 916 01:39:00,800 --> 01:39:07,840 caused by the detrimental energy negative energy which began to eliminate from the sun so actually 917 01:39:07,840 --> 01:39:14,560 tearing dero down into the shaver alphabet or not the shaver alphabet i should say the alphabet of 918 01:39:14,560 --> 01:39:22,000 the titans it would be known as man tongue and using man tongue to derive the root meaning 919 01:39:22,000 --> 01:39:30,240 of dero we would have to have detrimental energy hara source would be the concept derived from 920 01:39:30,240 --> 01:39:36,320 man tongue i dominate are you familiar with the uh science fiction classics of a van vote 921 01:39:37,600 --> 01:39:43,200 no not particularly i have read particularly the world of null a i recall reading it i don't recall 922 01:39:43,200 --> 01:39:48,480 the story the context itself but one of one of the most brilliant concepts that van votes created 923 01:39:49,040 --> 01:39:55,280 was something that sounds very familiar to a very similar to uh this detrimental energy concept 924 01:39:55,280 --> 01:40:02,080 and these mechs or he had a different name for it was that the super civilization invented a 925 01:40:02,080 --> 01:40:08,800 type of mechanism called disorder and the disorder was something that could take over any machine 926 01:40:08,800 --> 01:40:15,440 and interfere with its function but this story could transport people instantly through time space 927 01:40:16,240 --> 01:40:21,280 in fact you they use them as elevators you know you walk into an elevator on the ground floor 928 01:40:21,280 --> 01:40:26,160 and you were transported to the 24th floor it wasn't a real elevator it didn't go up and down 929 01:40:26,720 --> 01:40:31,280 through an elevator shaft it just transported you through time and space it could also transport 930 01:40:31,280 --> 01:40:36,960 you to the planet venus too it also did certain things to people control their minds and all the 931 01:40:36,960 --> 01:40:42,960 rest of it and uh this is a very brilliant science fiction concept was never claimed to be true but it 932 01:40:42,960 --> 01:40:50,720 sounds it sounds like coming from the same general thought well uh shaver himself claimed 933 01:40:50,720 --> 01:40:58,080 that certain people were in rapport or let's put it this way in contact by esp with uh 934 01:40:58,800 --> 01:41:08,080 heroes which are the uh good heroes or in other words integrative road and uh he claimed that the 935 01:41:08,080 --> 01:41:13,840 works of merit have you have read merit the moon pool the ship of ish taj and in various 936 01:41:13,840 --> 01:41:23,520 areas of ish he claimed that merit was in contact with uh uh tero who resided in the canvass and 937 01:41:23,520 --> 01:41:30,720 that many of his stories contained some of the basic basic truths of the uh the ancients uh 938 01:41:31,360 --> 01:41:38,160 now if we take in history in mythology we have always a reference to the elders the old ones 939 01:41:38,720 --> 01:41:45,840 we have references to oracles which as a rule resided in caverns or caves it always seems that 940 01:41:45,840 --> 01:41:52,560 there's always a reference to uh the depths the realms of darkness as they are referred to we 941 01:41:52,640 --> 01:42:00,320 have references to the inferno we have references to uh to to uh even to that today more than 942 01:42:00,320 --> 01:42:05,920 taking that the early primitive great god eric felonius was supposed to have been born out of 943 01:42:05,920 --> 01:42:10,480 a hole in the ground well what was the source of calling the organized crime on the surface today 944 01:42:10,480 --> 01:42:17,360 the underworld i mean you see we have these various references even to this day and uh 945 01:42:18,320 --> 01:42:23,120 after all i mean then there there does seem to be actually as you read the shape of mystery proof 946 01:42:23,120 --> 01:42:29,520 upon proof seems to build up now shape of predicted and i can't recall the exact event i can't recall 947 01:42:29,520 --> 01:42:35,120 the exact particle shape and not only predicted but he came out with concepts of gravitation 948 01:42:36,160 --> 01:42:43,920 and he claimed that gravitation was actually a flow an ether drift a watt and ether drift i don't 949 01:42:43,920 --> 01:42:48,880 know what that means what he meant was that there are these particles which are dispersed 950 01:42:48,880 --> 01:42:55,360 this these minute particles traveling at fantastic velocities which have a tendency in some way 951 01:42:56,320 --> 01:43:04,480 to become to change from a pure waveform into a corpuscular form of matter and by their fiction 952 01:43:04,480 --> 01:43:09,120 of penetration through matter as we know it create what we could turn gravity in other 953 01:43:09,760 --> 01:43:12,880 these particles are actually gravitational particles 954 01:43:13,680 --> 01:43:20,080 under a seriously i would have knew that the molecular wave theory is responsible for gravity 955 01:43:20,080 --> 01:43:28,240 and how can you misconstruing my intentions i am only stating what shaver sir i am not in no way 956 01:43:28,240 --> 01:43:34,960 stating my own personal belief or opinions in gravitational theory or i would i would 957 01:43:35,280 --> 01:43:42,000 humbly in relativity well i would i would humbly submit that shaver was well over his head 958 01:43:43,040 --> 01:43:50,960 well strangely enough then you find that shaver predicted that in a short time a smaller 959 01:43:50,960 --> 01:43:57,600 particle of matter of a particular type would be found i could not recall the exact naming 960 01:43:57,600 --> 01:44:03,920 attributed to it i cannot recall the exact way he said it would be found but strangely enough 961 01:44:03,920 --> 01:44:08,640 it happened as shaver said oh it's easy i can do it i'll do that right now i think there was 962 01:44:08,640 --> 01:44:13,120 the next six months to move meson particles will be found since they find one every three months 963 01:44:13,120 --> 01:44:20,320 yeah but you are uh then iskowitz you are a cyber magician you work as a more or less a scientist 964 01:44:20,320 --> 01:44:25,040 shaver was not a cyber nutrition he was not a scientist he was a welder he was a welder in 965 01:44:25,040 --> 01:44:32,240 a shipyard yes this is this is legit he was a welder in a shipyard you see then again we have to take 966 01:44:32,880 --> 01:44:39,680 shaver's position we have to take his attitude his type of person shaver they would aim well 967 01:44:39,680 --> 01:44:43,840 from what i can gather i never met the main personally from what i could gather for whatever 968 01:44:43,840 --> 01:44:50,960 things shaver yes definitely definitely definitely i'll tell you a couple of people that have met 969 01:44:50,960 --> 01:44:59,680 shaver to my knowledge uh kurtis fuller the adiatic public of a faith magazine yes oh that's 970 01:44:59,760 --> 01:45:03,280 fine yeah i remember that fact he told us that yeah during the coffee break he brought that up 971 01:45:03,280 --> 01:45:12,240 yeah and all he told us that uh that shaver this may be news to you uh domic that uh shaver was a 972 01:45:12,240 --> 01:45:18,240 pretty good writer and uh he was a sports writer at one time and eventually went into science fiction 973 01:45:18,240 --> 01:45:23,120 did you know that i knew that he was some form of writer here but i mean just how good he was or 974 01:45:23,120 --> 01:45:31,920 how successful i i don't know well then why would a a confident writer turn over to palmer 975 01:45:32,720 --> 01:45:38,160 scrap's paper with little notations on the back of an envelope and things like that to write it well 976 01:45:38,160 --> 01:45:44,320 if as you said before jern that he was getting his uh as i said that he was getting the messages 977 01:45:44,320 --> 01:45:49,360 through the welding machine and you came up with a very good point there as he was receiving these 978 01:45:49,360 --> 01:45:54,480 messages he would have to use whatever he had on hand and that would be to scribble these messages 979 01:45:54,480 --> 01:46:00,160 onto the backs of envelopes probably at the time even while he was getting the messages he wasn't 980 01:46:00,160 --> 01:46:09,120 attributing too much uh basic uh facts to him he wasn't actually uh thinking about it too much he 981 01:46:09,120 --> 01:46:14,000 was probably just packing these sheaves of scrap paper into envelopes and sending them into palmer 982 01:46:14,000 --> 01:46:19,120 just for their sheer joy of it marlott's now of course some time ago you know they published a 983 01:46:19,120 --> 01:46:30,960 book i think it was in the title that the elder world and uh that book uh was autographed by uh 984 01:46:31,680 --> 01:46:37,440 the author ritchard s shaver and that that should be a venture so then you should know that there 985 01:46:37,440 --> 01:46:42,320 was actually a shaver if he was not a graphing boy oh i know they weren't a shaver jern oh oh it was 986 01:46:42,320 --> 01:46:46,800 it was bad that it was been that one's questioning that now they also i remember him and parmer 987 01:46:48,400 --> 01:46:55,520 put out a book called i remember lemuria and the return of sapanis which was by ritchard s shaver 988 01:46:55,520 --> 01:47:03,440 but it is definitely parmer's uh contribution which made it uh readable and that was put out by 989 01:47:03,440 --> 01:47:11,280 venture books in 1948 so actually there was a hardcover books published but they were in limited 990 01:47:11,280 --> 01:47:18,000 quantities and uh actually i don't think that the shaver today is doing any writing from what i 991 01:47:18,000 --> 01:47:23,360 can gather from one way is he doing welding uh that i don't know john i know he lives in a very uh 992 01:47:24,400 --> 01:47:30,080 backward section of the country which part of the country where he lives in wisconsin yeah well 993 01:47:30,080 --> 01:47:34,240 parmer lives there too the parmer lives in wisconsin here is there an emmerc is there a 994 01:47:34,240 --> 01:47:40,080 possibility and i'm not trying to be facetious but is there a possibility that maybe parmer uh 995 01:47:40,880 --> 01:47:46,400 has shaver working for him at the plant there you know he has a printing plant which i i don't 996 01:47:46,400 --> 01:47:51,280 know john i wouldn't know i'll have to inquire of parmer as to what the shaver is a particular 997 01:47:51,280 --> 01:47:57,040 occupation at this time but i do know that one of the things then that seems to be the strongest 998 01:47:57,040 --> 01:48:05,360 point of the whole argument as we might call our discussion is the fact that a magazine that had 999 01:48:05,360 --> 01:48:13,200 boosted its circulation to 185 000 copies per month for a science fiction magazine remember just by 1000 01:48:13,200 --> 01:48:18,880 including the shaver mystery now the contention is that pressure was put on this magazine 1001 01:48:19,920 --> 01:48:28,000 amazing by guys by an amazing story by a group of science fiction writers led by a 17 year old boy 1002 01:48:28,000 --> 01:48:37,520 at the time uh now actually i don't think that was the excuse that was used but i don't think 1003 01:48:38,160 --> 01:48:44,320 that any actually the circulation was increased to such a vast degree that i don't think the 1004 01:48:44,320 --> 01:48:50,400 science fiction groups with a majority of buyers of the magazine any longer do you mean and what do 1005 01:48:50,400 --> 01:49:00,880 you mean to imply dominic that a 17 year old boy would carry so much weight 1006 01:49:02,800 --> 01:49:10,000 that the publishers ziff davis would decide to discontinue the publishing of shaver 1007 01:49:10,960 --> 01:49:18,400 of the shaver mystery when it boosted their circulation up to 185 000 that's just what i 1008 01:49:18,400 --> 01:49:24,240 was getting at you know i don't think that a small minority group like that would could cause a publisher 1009 01:49:24,800 --> 01:49:30,880 to drop the magazine or to drop the shaver mystery i should say because i know myself i spoke to 1010 01:49:30,880 --> 01:49:37,280 news dealers and the news dealers told me that as soon as the shaver mystery was dropped from the 1011 01:49:37,280 --> 01:49:41,760 magazine that the magazines weren't moving off the shelves as they were previous to them 1012 01:49:43,200 --> 01:49:47,200 now what do you think about what do you think you have to stop the you're applying to stop it 1013 01:49:47,920 --> 01:49:55,760 i'm not implying john i'm just wondering what is it i'd like to know what because when i made 1014 01:49:55,760 --> 01:50:02,080 that statement before about the fbi investigating shaver and and then jumped up jumped on my neck 1015 01:50:02,080 --> 01:50:09,200 there and wouldn't let me finish i never jump i first came to us cybernetically and that what 1016 01:50:09,200 --> 01:50:14,720 they told him actually this is palm as a word was one fact which made it difficult to drop the mystery 1017 01:50:15,600 --> 01:50:23,840 the same factor and this is the other part of the sentence convinced shaver of the reality of flying 1018 01:50:23,840 --> 01:50:32,960 sources the same factor in other words whatever these men told him convinced shaver of the reality 1019 01:50:32,960 --> 01:50:39,840 of sources so there is definitely you said you don't commit yourself before when i asked you 1020 01:50:39,840 --> 01:50:45,680 Ben do you think there is a silence group what do you mean a silence group throttling people from 1021 01:50:45,680 --> 01:50:52,160 talking about the silence group keeping certain facts about facts not only what we call technology 1022 01:50:52,160 --> 01:50:57,040 away from people but keeping certain clothes away from people as well i think major keyhole is under 1023 01:50:57,040 --> 01:51:03,280 this impression well major keyhole are under the impression that the certain branch of the government 1024 01:51:03,280 --> 01:51:08,000 itself is oh you're not referring to the government no i'm not referring to the government i say that 1025 01:51:08,000 --> 01:51:14,560 there are forces on this planet which we know a little while i remember when you say marshes are 1026 01:51:14,560 --> 01:51:19,680 you talking about human beings now i don't know john i just say some type of you can call it 1027 01:51:19,680 --> 01:51:25,600 metaphysical in concept we can call it some type of a metaphysical force brought down to the level 1028 01:51:25,600 --> 01:51:32,400 of the human being i don't know john but i do remember one thing during our investigation 1029 01:51:32,480 --> 01:51:39,200 that's augur myself of the benmer mystery i remember saying to our bender i said the bender 1030 01:51:39,200 --> 01:51:47,120 i said is it possible that we are owned by someone or something and he turned white to me 1031 01:51:47,120 --> 01:51:55,360 are the you recall that time that's an x10 code i said it is possible that we are owned by someone 1032 01:51:55,360 --> 01:52:02,400 or something that is quite a fantastic concept that there would be forces which would withhold 1033 01:52:03,600 --> 01:52:08,800 ma'am from achieving what may be some type of cosmetary which he is entitled to 1034 01:52:08,800 --> 01:52:13,040 you just lowered the temperature in this room about 20 degrees along the region of my spine 1035 01:52:13,680 --> 01:52:20,480 but i'll tell you i i hope what was his power what happened what we were talking about the powers 1036 01:52:20,480 --> 01:52:27,920 that be john there may be power silencing power it may be powers that be which act in a very 1037 01:52:27,920 --> 01:52:35,360 subtle manner probably acting on some of the more principal forces of life in general 1038 01:52:36,800 --> 01:52:42,640 which are throttling the human mind to the degree where eventually it will destroy itself i don't 1039 01:52:42,640 --> 01:52:47,440 know well i hope that if they're going to do any silencing that they don't start on me until i get 1040 01:52:47,440 --> 01:52:54,400 through with a couple of pieces of business right now and as some of his relatives have said 1041 01:52:55,120 --> 01:53:02,160 those who no longer want to be associated with the luchessi family they claim that domines 1042 01:53:03,040 --> 01:53:10,880 is possibly a direct descendant of the d roads benjamin isquit the siren attrition 1043 01:53:11,200 --> 01:53:22,080 and gentlemen who works on the 703 the 704 and also he works on the 650 and according to some of 1044 01:53:22,080 --> 01:53:30,240 his friends he should be in 701 that's that school you know yeah i'm definitely used to that 1045 01:53:30,240 --> 01:53:42,400 period we've had as engineers and uh really very competent engineers that is on model railroads 1046 01:53:46,560 --> 01:53:48,160 too good at radio but you know 1047 01:53:51,120 --> 01:53:58,320 and of course uh you're those two gentlemen that the controls if you've noticed any undue 1048 01:53:58,400 --> 01:54:04,800 poor reception the quality has not been up to standards you know the reason you possibly 1049 01:54:04,800 --> 01:54:10,880 haven't been listening to w a while possibly a you tuned in the w mca and you didn't know because 1050 01:54:10,880 --> 01:54:18,800 these boys can really yes they can't rush i understand that mr. think before was over to 1051 01:54:18,800 --> 01:54:27,920 dr crazier's office recently out good good that's right well uh charlie crazier dr crazier 1052 01:54:28,640 --> 01:54:35,360 like which is he's without a doubt i mean i've heard more reports from listeners 1053 01:54:35,360 --> 01:54:42,480 tell me that this man is absolutely fabulous as a chiropractor absolutely and i'm happy to hear 1054 01:54:42,480 --> 01:54:47,360 that uh mr. think of course doing better very very good 1055 01:54:47,760 --> 01:54:50,800 so 1056 01:54:53,920 --> 01:54:58,400 babies are gonna have to wrap it up unfortunately i'll be back with you again tonight at midnight 1057 01:54:58,400 --> 01:55:00,400 we'll be here with charles leadham 1058 01:55:02,320 --> 01:55:07,120 uh carlin hastings major donnelly keyhole 1059 01:55:09,840 --> 01:55:16,080 and uh lady belmont and sir belmont good night 1060 01:55:17,680 --> 01:55:23,120 happy pet shop so if you're getting up i sincerely hope you have a very very 1061 01:55:23,120 --> 01:55:24,080 very very happy day